2024 BOA Grand National Championships (Nov. 14-16)

[ClutchATX]

2 hours ago, utee94 said:

I'll add the same thing I've pointed out before on other threads, I think some Texas band fans become accustomed to the UIL score sheets and metrics, and expect BOA to be scored in the same way.  And, it's just not.

Some folks prefer the UIL scoresheets and some folks prefer the BOA scoresheets but either way, when you attend a BOA event, you know how it's going to be scored.  There's no sense in complaining about it, everyone knows ahead of time what the deal is.

 

Exactly. Cedar Park obviously gears their performance towards UIL scoring. Rouse has consistently beaten CPHS regular over the last two seasons in BOA competitions but CPHS has won the UIL competitions.  The Indiana bands are top notch and they know how they are going to be judged. It's as simple as that. 

[utee94]

26 minutes ago, ClutchATX said:

Exactly. Cedar Park obviously gears their performance towards UIL scoring. Rouse has consistently beaten CPHS regular over the last two seasons in BOA competitions but CPHS has won the UIL competitions.  The Indiana bands are top notch and they know how they are going to be judged. It's as simple as that. 

Yup.  CP's directors are very clear in their goals-- they want to win State.  Every year.  BOA events are nice, and they're fun, but UIL competitions is the business they are in, and their focus will always be in that direction.

With respect to CP and Rouse in 2024, though, I will point out that CP and Rouse were split 50/50 on results in BOA appearances this year. CP finished ahead of Rouse in both prelims and finals for BOA-Austin, and the reverse was true in San Antonio.

I think it would have been interesting if Rouse had come to Grand Nats this year-- I believe there's a good chance another reversal would have been the result. Cedar Park turned in some scorching runs in Indy.  😀

[packwick]

didn't have a horse in the race, but some of these judging inconsistencies are... oof...

kinda understand it, considering all the relative newbies to BOA they have to train, but still.

and when, oh when, are we gonna get a doubling of the effect panels?? feel like that might help at least a lil w/ the inconsistencies. boa is really behind the other marching arts orgs in that regard. frankly makes me look forward to wgi even more. easier to predict at least. lol.

[Rubisco]

23 minutes ago, packwick said:

didn't have a horse in the race, but some of these judging inconsistencies are... oof...

kinda understand it, considering all the relative newbies to BOA they have to train, but still.

and when, oh when, are we gonna get a doubling of the effect panels?? feel like that might help at least a lil w/ the inconsistencies. boa is really behind the other marching arts orgs in that regard. frankly makes me look forward to wgi even more. easier to predict at least. lol.

To be fair, WGI's consistency between rounds is aided tremendously by their reverse placement scheduling. We frequently see judges "fall in line" between rounds who were outliers in the preliminary round. I don't think most band people would care much for that reverse placement scheduling. Too rigid. Also, dare I say, you may be a bit biased given your professional experience. 🙃

At the same time, I agree with you about the possible doubling of the effect panels in BOA. I thought perhaps financial reasons were behind them opting not to do that, but with the addition of an entirely new panel this season, that's clearly not the case. It may indeed just be stubbornness. At the end of the day, it's up to BOA's customers to put their foot (feet?) down. 😂

[Rubisco]

Congratulations to all of the finalist bands! And, of course, a special shout out on this forum to Team Texas! 🤠

I know some of us like to complain about the results every year, but what Team Texas bands accomplish season after season, in spite of their very significant rehearsal limitations, is truly extraordinary.

[natertater21000]

2 hours ago, whitewing09 said:

Very much this. I think it also goes beyond scored sheets, but also just culture around performing arts. I have a vague recollection that at one point many years ago on this forum, some made contrasts in how Texas bands sound vs other states. Something to the tune of Texas bands focusing on timbre, tone quality, ensemble balance, whereas many non-Texas bands focus on phrasing and technical precision. Nowadays I think top bands are playing at such a level of execution that the differences aren’t as stark, but last Saturday I did find myself saying, “wow I think this Vandegrift show would score better at nats than San Antonio,” before placements were even announced. And I find it telling that only time Avon has placed below 3rd in the past decade was when they came to Texas regional (obvi more factors at play too).

I also find it funny that for years there’s been a running joke that BOA judges hear with their eyes because of the perceived higher correlation between visual demand and MGE scores than musical demand and MGE scores.  I think that analysis would be a fun data project to take on 😂

Okay, Long-ish post incoming.

I have a lot of different thoughts and feelings about this subject, and they have only expanded as I have progressed in my time as both a student and music educator. 

In Texas, tone (and by proximity intonation) is king. This is a direct result of an advantage Texas has that I would imagine most people don't consider. The average beginner band experience in Texas involves a homogeneous (everyone is playing the same instrument) class every day of the school week, and this is not something that can be said for a lot of the continental United States.  There are lots of places that have homogeneous classes that only meet every other day, or they see their students everyday but it is some form of a combined class (all woodwinds, all brass, or everyone all at once). In situations like this, it is virtually impossible to devote a large amount of time to developing a characteristic and mature tone. Playing more notes so the class can learn more music together becomes the main goal. 

BOA, as it's name sake would suggest, is trying its best to put forth a rubric that can fairly judge students who have had wildly different musical journeys from all across America fairly. For the most part I think they have done an excellent job, though I do think the GE panels need to be doubled as currently I think one GE judge holds too much ability to tank/raise a band's score. 

TL:DR If you think Texas bands sound better, you're correct. But BOA has designed it's sheets to help level the playing field for places that do not have the systems or resources that we are lucky to have in Texas. 

For clarification I am not saying this is true for every non Texas band. Plenty of out of state schools allow for homogeneous classes, and play with great tone and intonation (even though Texas is still the best at it 😉).

[Rubisco]

I'm not sure it's exactly accurate to say that BOA designed the sheets to level the playing field the way that you suggest, although they do want everything to be fair. BOA largely inherited their points of consideration from DCI's sheets. What's on them is simply the aspects of music performance that most music educators view as important. Tone quality is on there. The reason it doesn't have primacy the way it does in Texas is because judges are usually instructed not to over-privilege one point of consideration over another.

Meanwhile, in Texas, as an individual performer, you can go to region band and have the most dazzling technique and rhythmic accuracy, but if your tone quality isn't there, you're toast!

[natertater21000]

3 minutes ago, Rubisco said:

I'm not sure it's exactly accurate to say that BOA designed the sheets to level the playing field the way that you suggest, although they do want everything to be fair. BOA largely inherited their points of consideration from DCI's sheets. What's on them is simply the aspects of music performance that most music educators view as important. Tone quality is on there. The reason it doesn't have primacy the way it does in Texas is because judges are usually instructed not to over-privilege one point of consideration over another.

Meanwhile, in Texas, as an individual performer, you can go to region band and have the most dazzling technique and rhythmic accuracy, but if your tone quality isn't there, you're toast!

Poor wording on my part. Everything being considered equally is more what I meant by saying “leveling the playing field”. As for the DCI comparison I agree, although I wish GE was 40 and not 60 to better match DCI. 

[Rubisco]

I'm curious how big the 6A onslaught will be at Nationals next season. Flower Mound, Marcus, CTJ, The Woodlands, Round Rock, and Reagan are all due for appearances. It's been 4 years since Vista Ridge as well, and even longer since Vandegrift. Looks like it might be another 2021 in terms of top to bottom finals competition.

[natertater21000]

7 minutes ago, Rubisco said:

I'm curious how big the 6A onslaught will be at Nationals next season. Flower Mound, Marcus, CTJ, The Woodlands, Round Rock, and Reagan are all due for appearances. It's been 4 years since Vista Ridge as well, and even longer since Vandegrift. Looks like it might be another 2021 in terms of top to bottom finals competition.

Rouse is also primed to make their first trip, though I doubt it’ll be next year with 5A state taking place after SA. 
 

they won’t be 5A for long though 👀

[Rubisco]

I think some of them have been confirmed! Emphasis on think...

The way I view it, there are at most 6 "for sure" non-Texas locks for finals at any given Grand Nats: Avon, Broken Arrow, Carmel, Tarpon Springs, William Mason, and Blue Springs. Tarpon probably won't be going next year, so that's really only 5 occupied finals spots. Which, as we ravenous Texans probably realize, leaves 7 spots for us to gobble up. It's about time we beat the previous 6 record! Of course, I can't shake the feeling Bentonville may be emerging as a non-Texas lock, too.

 

[Whitephoenix461]

4 hours ago, Rubisco said:

I think some of them have been confirmed! Emphasis on think...

The way I view it, there are at most 6 "for sure" non-Texas locks for finals at any given Grand Nats: Avon, Broken Arrow, Carmel, Tarpon Springs, William Mason, and Blue Springs. Tarpon probably won't be going next year, so that's really only 5 occupied finals spots. Which, as we ravenous Texans probably realize, leaves 7 spots for us to gobble up. It's about time we beat the previous 6 record! Of course, I can't shake the feeling Bentonville may be emerging as a non-Texas lock, too.

 

I feel as though American Fork is also an emerging or established non-Texan “for sure” band.

[cheeto2401]

5 hours ago, Rubisco said:

I think some of them have been confirmed! Emphasis on think...

The way I view it, there are at most 6 "for sure" non-Texas locks for finals at any given Grand Nats: Avon, Broken Arrow, Carmel, Tarpon Springs, William Mason, and Blue Springs. Tarpon probably won't be going next year, so that's really only 5 occupied finals spots. Which, as we ravenous Texans probably realize, leaves 7 spots for us to gobble up. It's about time we beat the previous 6 record! Of course, I can't shake the feeling Bentonville may be emerging as a non-Texas lock, too.

 

is bentonville not a lock already???

[Tubalord11]

Hey everyone! Does anyone by chance know why the finals video isn’t on YouTube? Was hoping to watch it at some point, but was wondering if they took it down for some reason. Heard there were some issues with the camera angles and some other things? 

[sidi]

2 hours ago, Tubalord11 said:

Hey everyone! Does anyone by chance know why the finals video isn’t on YouTube? Was hoping to watch it at some point, but was wondering if they took it down for some reason. Heard there were some issues with the camera angles and some other things? 

Half of the stream was literally a white screen with just audio so it wasn't really the best product BOX5 could put out there.

[BaritoneBallah]

19 hours ago, utee94 said:

Yup.  CP's directors are very clear in their goals-- they want to win State.  Every year.  BOA events are nice, and they're fun, but UIL competitions is the business they are in, and their focus will always be in that direction.

With respect to CP and Rouse in 2024, though, I will point out that CP and Rouse were split 50/50 on results in BOA appearances this year. CP finished ahead of Rouse in both prelims and finals for BOA-Austin, and the reverse was true in San Antonio.

I think it would have been interesting if Rouse had come to Grand Nats this year-- I believe there's a good chance another reversal would have been the result. Cedar Park turned in some scorching runs in Indy.  😀

I dont think youre giving respect to both groups, Rouse finished 2.45 points above Cedar Park at San Antonio so I don't see the relevance of bringing up BOA Austin, Cedar Park clearly started the season stronger and Rouse overtook them. It's honestly simple as that. Even looking at national scores Cedar Park's prelims score (94.85) was only .85 higher then rouses score from a week ago (94.00) and then exact same in semis and then .7 lower in finals (93.3). 

[utee94]

1 hour ago, BaritoneBallah said:

I dont think youre giving respect to both groups, Rouse finished 2.45 points above Cedar Park at San Antonio so I don't see the relevance of bringing up BOA Austin, Cedar Park clearly started the season stronger and Rouse overtook them. It's honestly simple as that. Even looking at national scores Cedar Park's prelims score (94.85) was only .85 higher then rouses score from a week ago (94.00) and then exact same in semis and then .7 lower in finals (93.3). 

OK.

[BaritoneBallah]

31 minutes ago, utee94 said:

OK.

Glad you're being mature about this.

[utee94]

5 minutes ago, BaritoneBallah said:

Glad you're being mature about this.

Immature?  Why are you trying to pick a fight?  I don't feel the need to disagree or argue with your opinion.  

Incidentally, the smile at the end of my original statement was an indication that I was (at least half) joking. See?

You seem weirdly over-sensitive about this.

If you're a Rouse parent or student or fan, well, congratulations on an excellent season.  I saw your show many times this season and enjoyed it every time.

[Sideswiperr]

I think every one needs to calm up and take a hyper pill.

[LostChoirGuy]

Hate to keep this conversation going, but I thought Rouse was clearly better than Cedar Park in prelims of San Antonio but Cedar Park had a much better finals run and they were very similar (but Cedar Park was the first to go in finals so they really had no chance to overtake Rouse).  At Grand Nationals, CP improved even more.  I'd give the end of season edge slightly to CP, but they both were amazing this year.

[braddddd]

Woodlands, Marcus, flower mound, round rock, CTJ are all tx bands locks for 25 grand nats. 

Possible that Vista, Reagan, and vandy all go as well. 

[braddddd]

pretty sure Broken arrow, blue springs, and bentonville are going to, ofc Avon, Carmel, and Williamson will attend too. 

[LostChoirGuy]

Wow, this might actually be the best finals lineup ever.  Or at least as long as I've followed the activity.

[lost]

2 hours ago, LostChoirGuy said:

Wow, this might actually be the best finals lineup ever.  Or at least as long as I've followed the activity.

It’s definitely a favorite this Texas homer only rivaled by 2019.