2024 BOA San Antonio Super Regional (Nov. 8 & 9)

[tubapop]

13 minutes ago, crunchycookie3 said:

Recently, I've become more likely to agree that this isn't always the case. I think that's partly why we're seeing a massive push from top groups in DFW to a USBands contest for the first time ever this season.

Whoa, can you elaborate on this?

[crunchycookie3]

1 hour ago, tubapop said:

Whoa, can you elaborate on this?

Hebron, Flower Mound, Marcus, Coppell, Duncanville, Keller Central, Southlake Carroll, and Waxahachie are all enrolled in a USBands contest on Nov 6th. For most of these groups, this is their first ever USBands contest 

[tubapop]

49 minutes ago, crunchycookie3 said:

Hebron, Flower Mound, Marcus, Coppell, Duncanville, Keller Central, Southlake Carroll, and Waxahachie are all enrolled in a USBands contest on Nov 6th. For most of these groups, this is their first ever USBands contest 

I knew that part, but I was wondering about the impartial judging favoring bands based on reputation. Is there any evidence of this? I hadn't heard of it but would not be surprised. Judges don't want to be "wrong" and there can be a real fear of losing respect in the community for boldly scoring a less reputable band over a more reputable band, even if the performances merited it.

[lost]

3 hours ago, crunchycookie3 said:

. I think that's partly why we're seeing a massive push from top groups in DFW to a USBands contest for the first time ever this season. 

This is so silly considering USBands has a very similar judging sheet. The directors at these programs will tell you their decision to attend this contest was because of proximity and dating, and actually as an opportunity to gain feedback to place well here at BOA SA. "Massive push" is so silly considering these top groups have avoided USBands for so long and it is ONE contest. This take is really strange. There is no concern among top directors that name recognition is a worrying trend. Genuinely the strangest and furthest away from reality  take I've seen on my five years on this forum.

This massive push to USBands you characterize does not exist....at all. A strong group does not have to be successful in all three, not when one circuit hides ordinals and has outdated classifications. More power to the groups that use USBands as their main circuit, but everything you're saying is so far removed from reality.

[ChristopherRoden]

30 minutes ago, lost said:

This is so silly considering USBands has a very similar judging sheet. The directors at these programs will tell you their decision to attend this contest was because of proximity and dating, and actually as an opportunity to gain feedback to place well here at BOA SA. "Massive push" is so silly considering these top groups have avoided USBands for so long and it is ONE contest. This take is really strange. There is no concern among top directors that name recognition is a worrying trend. Genuinely the strangest and furthest away from reality  take I've seen on my five years on this forum.

This massive push to USBands you characterize does not exist....at all. A strong group does not have to be successful in all three, not when one circuit hides ordinals and has outdated classifications. More power to the groups that use USBands as their main circuit, but everything you're saying is so far removed from reality.

We must be in different circles… 

across the state I have heard quite the critique on BOA these past 2-3 yrs 

[crunchycookie3]

31 minutes ago, lost said:

This is so silly considering USBands has a very similar judging sheet. The directors at these programs will tell you their decision to attend this contest was because of proximity and dating, and actually as an opportunity to gain feedback to place well here at BOA SA. "Massive push" is so silly considering these top groups have avoided USBands for so long and it is ONE contest. This take is really strange. There is no concern among top directors that name recognition is a worrying trend. Genuinely the strangest and furthest away from reality  take I've seen on my five years on this forum.

This massive push to USBands you characterize does not exist....at all. A strong group does not have to be successful in all three, not when one circuit hides ordinals and has outdated classifications. More power to the groups that use USBands as their main circuit, but everything you're saying is so far removed from reality.

Allow me to clarify: I don’t think that groups are ditching BOA en masse. I also don’t think that you’d find a single program that feels great about the chances of being successful consistently in BOA—it’s SOOOO deep in TX. What I did want to highlight is that there are programs who have historically never competed in USBands now all electing to compete in USBands together. The fact that these top programs have all avoided USBands for so long, and are now choosing to enroll together, I think, is a big step for USBands and maybe signifies USBands becoming a bigger deal in TX. Personally, I think that not thinking this is a big deal is strange! Having such heavy hitters finally enroll in USBands and to do so all together, certainly does a lot for the circuit! Having another strong circuit gives sooo many programs yet another pathway to success. Regardless, I’ve probably let the point get away from me on this thread in particular! BOASA going to be a great, insanely competitive show!

[bandfan102]

1 hour ago, tubapop said:

I knew that part, but I was wondering about the impartial judging favoring bands based on reputation. Is there any evidence of this? I hadn't heard of it but would not be surprised. Judges don't want to be "wrong" and there can be a real fear of losing respect in the community for boldly scoring a less reputable band over a more reputable band, even if the performances merited it.

It's 100% a thing. Name bias creeps in and often times people will end up agreeing because the people watching are biased themselves. It's a genuine problem. 

[josephbandfan]

Theres always going to be some bias, that’s impossible to escape. But nothing on a major scale where I would call it a systematic problem 

[Rubisco]

Eh, I've been doing this for 30+ years. I've been hearing these criticisms -- mostly not from band directors -- for 30+ years. It doesn't matter what the band circuit is. Whichever one you choose, these criticisms will remain, lingering in the background like dark matter.

Meanwhile, BOA keeps adding regionals in Texas, and they're chock-full of bands! 🤷

[natertater21000]

12 hours ago, bandfan102 said:

It's 100% a thing. Name bias creeps in and often times people will end up agreeing because the people watching are biased themselves. It's a genuine problem. 

It is 100% a very minor thing and nowhere near a genuine problem. I really struggle to see how people can say this given the competitive history of bands in Texas. If this were truly a genuine problem we would have never seen instances like LD Bell missing finals at BOA SA for multiple years, or Leander jumping from not in finals to 3rd overall, or Rouse winning Austin over Vandy, or Cedar Park dropping in and out of finals over the years, or Flower mound bursting into the upper ranks and becoming a mainstay powerhouse only to drop to 9th just a few years later,  I could go on and on and on. It takes A LOT to keep a program consistently at the top. Parent and admin support, cooperation between the high school and its feeder middle schools, fundraising, private lesson staff, and so much more. To boil all that down to "obviously there is just bias towards the big names" is frankly disrespectful. 

[bandfan102]

2 hours ago, natertater21000 said:

It is 100% a very minor thing and nowhere near a genuine problem. I really struggle to see how people can say this given the competitive history of bands in Texas. If this were truly a genuine problem we would have never seen instances like LD Bell missing finals at BOA SA for multiple years, or Leander jumping from not in finals to 3rd overall, or Rouse winning Austin over Vandy, or Cedar Park dropping in and out of finals over the years, or Flower mound bursting into the upper ranks and becoming a mainstay powerhouse only to drop to 9th just a few years later,  I could go on and on and on. It takes A LOT to keep a program consistently at the top. Parent and admin support, cooperation between the high school and its feeder middle schools, fundraising, private lesson staff, and so much more. To boil all that down to "obviously there is just bias towards the big names" is frankly disrespectful. 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. It may come down to a matter of personal opinion, but I noticed some strange things at BOA San Antonio last year and a few other competitions. 

[natertater21000]

29 minutes ago, bandfan102 said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. It may come down to a matter of personal opinion, but I noticed some strange things at BOA San Antonio last year and a few other competitions. 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even when that opinion is patently false.

[Sideswiperr]

56 minutes ago, bandfan102 said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. It may come down to a matter of personal opinion, but I noticed some strange things at BOA San Antonio last year and a few other competitions. 

Bias is going to happen, if I’m a judge(thank god I’m not), if I hear that the next band is Hebron high school, naturally I’m going to expect it to be good. 

[josephbandfan]

2 hours ago, bandfan102 said:

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. It may come down to a matter of personal opinion, but I noticed some strange things at BOA San Antonio last year and a few other competitions. 

Can you list these strange things? 

[LKendrick]

Unless you're hearing the judges tapes and hearing the reason they're writing the number down, all this bias/unfair judging talk is just speculation and kinda misinformation.  Unless you have specific examples and evidence of a judge having a bias and that influence the number they're writing down, it's probably just your personal opinion/your own personal bias.  I hear it every year.  

[tubapop]

31 minutes ago, LKendrick said:

Unless you're hearing the judges tapes and hearing the reason they're writing the number down, all this bias/unfair judging talk is just speculation and kinda misinformation.  Unless you have specific examples and evidence of a judge having a bias and that influence the number they're writing down, it's probably just your personal opinion/your own personal bias.  I hear it every year.  

In what situation would a judge openly express their bias? Bias is often subconscious, and even if it wasn't, no judge will admit that s/he is giving a higher score to a particular band because of their reputation. Judges, who are human, bring various types of biases to the evaluation process, from the type of music they like to the type of marching style they prefer. It all influences a given score. So it isn't a great leap to think that a judge might consciously or subconsciously give a little bit of an edge to certain bands based on those bands' reputations or names.

I'm not saying I agree that there is a pervasive bias problem to a degree that action needs to be taken - there very likely isn't. As another poster pointed out, there is enough variation in the ranks year after year that this is probably not a big deal. But bias is a very real human behavior and it could be influencing certain judges in certain situations to at least some degree.

[packwick]

wellll this thread is all over the map.

i def fall into the "buuut where are the examples/evidence?!!" category for the reputation debate. thiiink what we'll find is that fans of this activity sometimes have a pretty solipsistic perspective when it comes to band perfs. im guilty of it too. like, why don't the judges over-privilege the same parts of a band perf that i do?!!! why don't they prefer what i prefer??! why not just... my opinion?? other opinions exist?!

meanwhile im super hard pressed to think of any of the heavy hitters that aren't consistently awesome in all or most of what's actually on the judging sheets. and when they aren't, they drop in placement, like others have said.

[Samuel Culper]

My feeling is that 90% of "the judges are biased" claims come from folks who disagree with results and/or are fans of bands that "should" have placed higher/not missed finals.

But that's just, like, my opinion man.

[FaultLineBlues]

It does feel a little incongruent with the point of BOA becoming biased and causing bands to try USBands when three of the bands that are going to Arlington are Hebron, Flower Mound and Marcus. Three bands that are historically very successful in the BOA circuit, if there WAS bias (which I don't think there's much of), wouldn't they be groups that seem to benefit from it? 

[Nny14]

8 hours ago, packwick said:

wellll this thread is all over the map.

i def fall into the "buuut where are the examples/evidence?!!" category for the reputation debate. thiiink what we'll find is that fans of this activity sometimes have a pretty solipsistic perspective when it comes to band perfs. im guilty of it too. like, why don't the judges over-privilege the same parts of a band perf that i do?!!! why don't they prefer what i prefer??! why not just... my opinion?? other opinions exist?!

meanwhile im super hard pressed to think of any of the heavy hitters that aren't consistently awesome in all or most of what's actually on the judging sheets. and when they aren't, they drop in placement, like others have said.

The funny thing is there's actually tons of evidence against this reputation bias theory. So much so I probably couldn't even fit all the examples in a single post here. But if anyone who thinks otherwise wants to start naming some "overrated" programs in this state or any other, go on ahead. Just don't be surprised when you (rightfully) get flamed for it.

[aaron067]

I imagine the most important aspect of the USBands contest at AT&T stadium is that it's at AT&T stadium and not that it's USBands.  It's also an opportunity for top groups to explore a potential end of season contest in a dome that is local instead of always having to spend so much money and time traveling to San Antonio for 4-5 days for two back-to-back, massively competitive contests.  

[BandMom75]

Is there any shade at the top under the press box? Hoping so! 

[TruthMatters]

On 10/9/2024 at 6:16 PM, MikeKyu said:

That is not true. Every finalist at GN would seriously compete for top 6 here, every year. To believe otherwise is absurd. Your statement is essentially saying: 

Carmel

Avon

Tarpon Springs

Blue Springs

Broken Arrow

O'Fallon

And Dobbins Bennett 

Are all pushovers that can compete in the national stage but would not be nearly as competitive in a Super? Bollocks! Is the San Antonio regional the strongest of Super Regionals? Absolutely. Is it tougher than GN? Not a chance. 

Little late, but I believe my post has way more truth than yours.  Maybe the top 4 or 5 non-TX bands can make finals in SA and definitely Avon/Carmel/BA can  be top 6 and compete for the win.  But after that you'd see a lot of TX in the next 20 to 30 bands easily.  GN is top heavy with bands that never leave their region for whatever reason, but let's not pretend the top 30 in GN can even come close to the Top 30 in BOA SA.  The fact that most of the GN bands refuse to come to TX when TX bands have to spend almost $400K+ to get to Indy is testament to who is not afraid to venture into other competitions.  Many examples of bands in TX who don't make UIL or BOA SA finals making it in GN finals and/or finishing right at the bubble of finals.

Results > your feelings.  GN is a title, it does not reflect quality and / or even that the top bands around the nation every year attend.  It's nothing more than a glorified Super Regional with few TX bands thrown in.

This takes nothing away from how awesome Avon, Carmel, BA, and many of the others are, but the depth at GN is just not there compared to SA.

[LKendrick]

Let's be respectful please.  Some hearty discussion is fine but try not to be snarky/nasty.  Thank you.  

[TruthMatters]

19 minutes ago, LKendrick said:

Let's be respectful please.  Some hearty discussion is fine but try not to be snarky/nasty.  Thank you.  

Since you posted this right after my response but not after other similar responses.  What in my response was snarky/nasty that was different than others.  I'd gladly remove it but I didn't see anything in mine that was in anyway "nasty".