2024 BOA San Antonio Super Regional (Nov. 8 & 9)

[packwick]

29 minutes ago, MikeKyu said:

That is not true. Every finalist at GN would seriously compete for top 6 here, every year. To believe otherwise is absurd.

lol wut? don't all the TX bands that are nowhere near the top 6 at SA but then make Nat finals cast serious doubt on this?

granted calling Nats a joke is stupid, but there's a kernel of truth to the latter part of that poster's statement, depending on the yr, and if those non finalist SA bands attend Nats in isolation as opposed to all at once, 'cause then they'd start giving each other the boot.

[TWHSParent]

On 10/7/2024 at 11:12 PM, lost said:

TWHS was first on in 2018 for UIL! Not as bad as the schedule they have lined up this year...

That year we stayed in San Antonio from Saturday (San Antonio Super) through UIL finals. So while it was a moderately early morning for UIL prelims, it wasn't as challenging as it could have been from a schedule perspective.

[lost]

4 minutes ago, TWHSParent said:

That year we stayed in San Antonio from Saturday (San Antonio Super) through UIL finals. So while it was a moderately early morning for UIL prelims, it wasn't as challenging as it could have been from a schedule perspective.

I actually really liked how the schedule worked out that year. A lot of groups were able to stay in SA for UIL Monday. I think it really showed in the performances because it felt like by Monday every single band that had been able to stay the weekend was performing on a whole other level.

[packwick]

could those bands dealing w/ the crappy times/football games get permission to have their middle schools or junior highs perform at the games instead?? while they travel to SA to check into the hotel the night before?? not sure districts allow that.

[TrenBS]

29 minutes ago, MikeKyu said:

That is not true. Every finalist at GN would seriously compete for top 6 here, every year. To believe otherwise is absurd. Your statement is essentially saying: 

Carmel

Avon

Tarpon Springs

Blue Springs

Broken Arrow

O'Fallon

And Dobbins Bennett 

Are all pushovers that can compete in the national stage but would not be nearly as competitive in a Super? Bollocks! Is the San Antonio regional the strongest of Super Regionals? Absolutely. Is it tougher than GN? Not a chance. 

This is becoming a long response so Ill preface that I'm not yelling at you in particular, but I've also thought about comparing Grand Nationals to San Antonio, so this is more my thoughts on the matter lol

Is Grand Nationals tougher in regards to finalists? Sure, definitely with Carmel Avon and Blue Springs the top half is extremely hard to break, but for the bottom half of finalists there's a strong argument that BOA San Antonio is more difficult, since Southlake, Prosper, and Hendrickson all made finals at BOA GN in 2022, and I couldn't even tell you the last time these bands either made BOA SA finals (or even beaten Wakeland at a BOA competition which typically places on the very low end of BOA SA finals, in which Southlake placed low in BOA Prosper finals and Hendrickson missed at a regional, albeit a very difficult one)

From there it drops off even further, I know it's not really fair to compare scores between competitions, but the top 32 at San Antonio is breaking 80s and sometimes doesn't even fall below 82, while at GN it's fairly common to have multiple mid-high 70s scores which on the sheets is almost a whole area below an 80s score (80s being all "usually"s on the middle end, with 70s having low "usually"s, or high "sometime''s scores) and ignoring that, TX bands who are middle contenders at BOA San Antonio typically make finals at GN, or at the very least place very high in Semi-Finals

Obviously, there can't be an objectively "right" opinion unless we held these contests at the same day, had the same judges score on the same standards, and placed people both in BOA SA and Grand Nationals, but saying that GN is absolutely way more competitive than BOA SA is being pretty reductive to the absolute depth of BOA SA, and at worst is a pretty slim margin to be judging both contests competitively, but I absolutely agree that top half of finals at Grand Nationals is way more competitive, particularly with Avon, Carmel, Broken Arrow, Blue Springs, and William Mason in particular, but top to bottom Id argue that BOA SA has more depth in competition

[Rubisco]

1 hour ago, packwick said:

lol wut? don't all the TX bands that are nowhere near the top 6 at SA but then make Nat finals cast serious doubt on this?

It absolutely does!

[seafoodbuffet]

2 hours ago, MikeKyu said:

That is not true. Every finalist at GN would seriously compete for top 6 here, every year. To believe otherwise is absurd.

That seems equally exaggerated. Using only data from bands who competed at both San Antonio and Grand Nats in the same year, I can't come up with any bands who both finished top 6 in San Antonio but then failed to make finals at GN (I'm struggling to find one who finished outside of the top six in finals at GN).

I tend to agree with the other poster, cracking top 6 at  GN is hard, probably harder than cracking top half at San Antonio. But to claim that the bottom six at GN would definitely be competitive for top six at San Antonio just isn't supported by any historical data.

[Nny14]

4 hours ago, packwick said:

could those bands dealing w/ the crappy times/football games get permission to have their middle schools or junior highs perform at the games instead?? while they travel to SA to check into the hotel the night before?? not sure districts allow that.

These are the situations where schools that have a capable JV band can really take advantage of it.

[Nny14]

2 hours ago, seafoodbuffet said:

That seems equally exaggerated. Using only data from bands who competed at both San Antonio and Grand Nats in the same year, I can't come up with any bands who both finished top 6 in San Antonio but then failed to make finals at GN (I'm struggling to find one who finished outside of the top six in finals at GN).

I tend to agree with the other poster, cracking top 6 at  GN is hard, probably harder than cracking top half at San Antonio. But to claim that the bottom six at GN would definitely be competitive for top six at San Antonio just isn't supported by any historical data.

Blue Springs 2013 is one I can think of. 

[Samuel Culper]

On the GN vs SA debate, this is my belief after watching the dynamics on both contests for the past decade+. This is a bit theoretical, but bear with me...

Let's compare two hypothetical contests: a single year's GN lineup with only one Texas band at a time competing vs SA with only one GN band at a time competing.

In the case of SA - In a typical year there are about eight-ish GN bands that could make finals at SA. Yes, the top four or five or so heavy-hitters would likely be top half, but the surefire SA finalist level bands dwindle very quickly after that.

Looking at GN - In a given year there are easily 15 bands at SA (aka Texas bands) that would make finals at GN. Maybe more. We have seen it time and again that bands that do both SA and GN in the same year, place higher in Indy.

The depth at the top in SA is deeper, no question, once you get past the upper half of Finals. In the upper half, I'd say it is close to comparable.

[tubapop]

I wonder how all these comparisons would change if all bands nationwide had the same hourly practice restrictions. How do Avon, Carmel, Blue Springs, Tarpon fare in SA with the same weekly limit we have?

[natertater21000]

Other than the multiple times that a band that missed finals at SA went on to make finals at GN, I think one of the most obvious examples of SA being a more difficult contest top to bottom would be 2017. Avon has missed the "podium" of any contest (top three spots) only ONE time in the last 10 years. That was when they made the trip down to SA in 2017 and came in 4th behind Vandy, Hebron, and CTJ.

There is the outlier example of blue springs in 2013 (made SA finals but did not make GN finals), but now that we are more than 10 years removed from that I think it's safe to say almost everyone would agree that that was an....interesting jusdging choice to say the least. 

[ChristopherRoden]

14 hours ago, TrenBS said:

From there it drops off even further, I know it's not really fair to compare scores between competitions, but the top 32 at San Antonio is breaking 80s and sometimes doesn't even fall below 82, while at GN it's fairly common to have multiple mid-high 70s scores which on the sheets is almost a whole area below an 80s score (80s being all "usually"s on the middle end, with 70s having low "usually"s, or high "sometime''s scores) and ignoring that, TX bands who are middle contenders at BOA San Antonio typically make finals at GN, or at the very least place very high in Semi-Finals

 

This^ 

not to mention the time between contests...
This makes me want a "TMEA Honor Band"-style nationwide contest with blind judging on video recordings of bands. That would require the bands to adhere to "no defining features" in their show but that should be something easy to prepare for. (no W set TWHS!) 

[seafoodbuffet]

20 minutes ago, ChristopherRoden said:

with blind judging on video recordings of bands.

sorry but this made me laugh… how would this work?

[TrenBS]

2 minutes ago, seafoodbuffet said:

sorry but this made me laugh… how would this work?

He meant blind as in not knowing which band is performing, not in the literal sense, although the wording is pretty funny lol

[lost]

2 hours ago, natertater21000 said:

Other than the multiple times that a band that missed finals at SA went on to make finals at GN, I think one of the most obvious examples of SA being a more difficult contest top to bottom would be 2017. Avon has missed the "podium" of any contest (top three spots) only ONE time in the last 10 years. That was when they made the trip down to SA in 2017 and came in 4th behind Vandy, Hebron, and CTJ.

There is the outlier example of blue springs in 2013 (made SA finals but did not make GN finals), but now that we are more than 10 years removed from that I think it's safe to say almost everyone would agree that that was an....interesting jusdging choice to say the least. 

Blue Springs visual scores were up all season and their music just never caught up that year.

[natertater21000]

27 minutes ago, lost said:

Blue Springs visual scores were up all season and their music just never caught up that year.

True, the scores do reflect that.  I'd argue they sounded markedly better than a certain perenial finalist that year though.

[J-Mike16]

15 minutes ago, natertater21000 said:

True, the scores do reflect that.  I'd argue they sounded markedly better than a certain perenial finalist that year though.

LD Bell? 

[natertater21000]

1 hour ago, J-Mike16 said:

LD Bell? 

Marian Catholic, not a huge leap. they were 12th in music in finals after all. 

[slowbrass]

2013 San Antonio finals were a certified Marie czapinski masterclass 😂

[packwick]

1 hour ago, slowbrass said:

2013 San Antonio finals were a certified Marie czapinski masterclass 😂

yessss, i remember that lol.

not to single her out bc she often does nail it imo, but it is a good example of why doubling the effect panel could be a nice change for BOA!! a little less "luck of the draw" when it comes to panels.

[packwick]

6 hours ago, ChristopherRoden said:

This^ 

not to mention the time between contests...
This makes me want a "TMEA Honor Band"-style nationwide contest with blind judging on video recordings of bands. That would require the bands to adhere to "no defining features" in their show but that should be something easy to prepare for. (no W set TWHS!) 

blind contest attempt would be iiiinteresting, don't think it would end up being all that blind tho, at least at the top. actually don't even think it really works in tmea either, cause the reps are easily viewed.

bands have very characteristic sounds and styles that are easy to pick up on, eeeven if the name of the band isn't suggested anywhere. i think if u blinded me on all the top tx bands this yr, id have no problem telling you who they are. likely true for many other ppl.

[tubapop]

15 minutes ago, packwick said:

blind contest attempt would be iiiinteresting, don't think it would end up being all that blind tho, at least at the top. actually don't even think it really works in tmea either, cause the reps are easily viewed.

bands have very characteristic sounds and styles that are easy to pick up on, eeeven if the name of the band isn't suggested anywhere. i think if u blinded me on all the top tx bands this yr, id have no problem telling you who they are. likely true for many other ppl.

Maybe true for you and me. But surely we can find a panel of judges who aren’t too familiar with the top Texas bands?

 

[packwick]

11 minutes ago, tubapop said:

Maybe true for you and me. But surely we can find a panel of judges who aren’t too familiar with the top Texas bands?

 

i think those judges would have to be preeeetty inexperienced (at the HS level at least) to not be able to tell, for the top bands anyway.

[crunchycookie3]

Well, now I feel that we're dancing around the point which is these top schools are by and large the best sounding. There's no great way to keep name/bias out of marching band, but ultimately we have to trust that BOA or UIL has vetted judges appropriately who are willing to reward quality performances over name recognition. Recently, I've become more likely to agree that this isn't always the case. I have to wonder if that's partly why we're seeing a massive push from top groups in DFW to a USBands contest for the first time ever this season. I also think it's partly why judging ordinals from prelims across early season TX BOAs are quite scattered this year. I think in TX we have become so deep in terms of competition that USBands is almost a saving grace, providing yet another circuit for groups to be successful in. My hope is that groups stop placing all their hope in being successful in BOA and UIL and greatly diversify their fall schedules going forward. Truly, the best groups should be dominant across the board, so I'd love to see a group try to pull off a win in all three.