UIL 4A State Marching Contest 2024 (Nov. 13)

[GarbagePatchKid]

39 minutes ago, J-Mike16 said:

So, do you think the bands in B & C don't deserve to go to State?

I was at C. The results are accurate. Maybe move Farmersville up a spot or two and move Bridge City back a spot or two. Very accurate judging IMO

[Liam Allen]

How about we stop assuming that judges did things because a band was loud?  Until I hear a judge tape that says that(which by the way will never happen with a competent judge), I don’t buy that argument.  What I think is that the results, however offensive, are in fact the results and now we go to state where there will be more results that I probably won’t agree with.

For transparency, the usual CS grad disclaimer.  Also, and you can go to the area b page and see for yourself, I did not have them in first.  However, I do think that panther creek left the door open, especially in visual.  I was noticing a lot of small things that I did not expect to find in the favorite to win state.  CS took advantage of that.

As to the volume and size argument, Celina is about as far from both of those things as you can get and they’ve swept state the last two years.  Panther creek is not large, and they are likely going to win state this year.  Judges reward achievement regardless of size or volume.

[GarbagePatchKid]

15 minutes ago, Liam Allen said:

How about we stop assuming that judges did things because a band was loud?  Until I hear a judge tape that says that(which by the way will never happen with a competent judge), I don’t buy that argument.  What I think is that the results, however offensive, are in fact the results and now we go to state where there will be more results that I probably won’t agree with.

For transparency, the usual CS grad disclaimer.  Also, and you can go to the area b page and see for yourself, I did not have them in first.  However, I do think that panther creek left the door open, especially in visual.  I was noticing a lot of small things that I did not expect to find in the favorite to win state.  CS took advantage of that.

As to the volume and size argument, Celina is about as far from both of those things as you can get and they’ve swept state the last two years.  Panther creek is not large, and they are likely going to win state this year.  Judges reward achievement regardless of size or volume.

I saw the judges sheet for finals. Panther Creek got all ones for visual. It was music that hurt them. 

[Liam Allen]

9 minutes ago, GarbagePatchKid said:

I saw the judges sheet for finals. Panther Creek got all ones for visual. It was music that hurt them. 

Yeah I got nothing on that.  There was a lot of stuff that I saw on that recap that raised my eyebrows lol.  If we’re going to complain about something complain about UIL always going for whatever’s the cleanest instead of pushing the limits or having actual music behind it

[waynet2010]

I’m super glad to see 4 Area A bands going. All have good shows and look forward to repping our area well at state

[MaybeAMusician]

5 hours ago, Liam Allen said:

Yeah I got nothing on that.  There was a lot of stuff that I saw on that recap that raised my eyebrows lol.  If we’re going to complain about something complain about UIL always going for whatever’s the cleanest instead of pushing the limits or having actual music behind it

If the judging was solely based on cleanliness then there’s one particular Area B band that shouldn’t have been top five. 

[thejitfromband]

Like I said I am not a judge and wasn't able to see all the bands throughout the day. However, I don't think it is a coincidence that all the performed later in the day and were the loudest aside from Celina got put on top...

[Liam Allen]

1 hour ago, thejitfromband said:

Like I said I am not a judge and wasn't able to see all the bands throughout the day. However, I don't think it is a coincidence that all the performed later in the day and were the loudest aside from Celina got put on top...

It’s harder to play loud and do all the fundamentals correctly.  Also Celina still won.

[Liam Allen]

2 hours ago, MaybeAMusician said:

If the judging was solely based on cleanliness then there’s one particular Area B band that shouldn’t have been top five. 

Which one out of curiosity?  I could see a few different answers for that.

[thejitfromband]

22 minutes ago, Liam Allen said:

It’s harder to play loud and do all the fundamentals correctly.  Also Celina still won.

Yes I completely understand that I marched as well. However, those loud bands were not moving or marching as good as other softer bands. They also had a few heros sticking out. I watched Celina and yes they are soft but I saw the win coming. Their brass tone is heavenly and their marching as a group and individually is prestigious.

[SETXgal]

8 hours ago, criscubes said:

I think what he means is that the judges didn't do their job right. With zero disrespect to the bands that performed, they were all fantastic, in area c sulphur definitely took the win in my books. Bridge city was loud and sounded phenomenal, but other bands were out there that marched better and played to the same degree yet got placed lower. Panther Creek was about as clean as a 4a band could get and they executed their show absolutely beautifully, and the judges rewarded China Spring for being louder...

I'm not at all saying the bands that qualified didn't deserve to go to state, but the judges didn't do a lot of the bands justice. It seems yet again, volume and size prevail in the judges eyes.

I would suggest reviewing the new score sheets & the judging guides and then re-watch the videos. Look at the Content section on the sheets. If you watched Area C finals with those in mind, assessing the difficulty and execution of marching maneuvers, especially *While Playing*, and look at the difficulty of marching performed & executed while playing more difficult parts of the music, the results made sense. Some great crowd pleaser "shows" were performed that did not have enough challenging marching & playing at the same time to score as well as they would have in previous years (due to the new score sheets & judging guidance).  UIL is trying to bring the focus back to marching & music, and level the playing field some between big budget & small budget programs.

Excerpt from Content:

+- Frequency/Demand of Movement While Playing -

the ability of a group to function as an ensemble who plays and marches at the same time. In the past, judges would address "standstill time".

Ensembles in Texas are expected to "march-and-play", not "march-then-play". 

+- Content with Respect to Challenge

- the musical content assigned to the performers contains an inherent level of challenge, especially when considering the visual assignments tasked in collaboration. This descriptor allows an adjudicator to comment on the level of rigor asked of the performers derived from the content chosen by their directors.

[just.me]

9 hours ago, thejitfromband said:

I normally would but the judging today was not it. I do not agree with placements especially in area b and c. It seems like judges simply picked the bands that were the loudest and later in the day. That's not how you judge a contest. Hopefully judges at state are competent.

Anyhow, I do feel like breaking top 10 this year will be extremely hard. These bands are getting better and better every year. Good luck to everyone especially those new comers like Aubrey and Farmersville.

There were definitely bands in B that should have gone on to finals, that, in my opinion, were better.  There were shows that moved on that, again to me, while visually and musically clean were just mid and boring.  I want to see shows that have more of a DCI style in the finals, it is more visually dynamic and I think more of a fun experience to watch.  West Mesquite's show this year is an example of that...

[just.me]

9 hours ago, J-Mike16 said:

So, do you think the bands in B & C don't deserve to go to State?

There were some that definitely deserved to move on to finals that didn't...

[SETXgal]

3 minutes ago, just.misty said:

There were definitely bands in B that should have gone on to finals, that, in my opinion, were better.  There were shows that moved on that, again to me, while visually and musically clean were just mid and boring.  I want to see shows that have more of a DCI style in the finals, it is more visually dynamic and I think more of a fun experience to watch.  West Mesquite's show this year is an example of that...

While those are definitely more fun to watch, UIL is moving to dial in the focus on marching & music. 

[just.me]

3 minutes ago, SETXgal said:

While those are definitely more fun to watch, UIL is moving to dial in the focus on marching & music. 

It CAN be both, it's not an either or.  Don't hose shows that are more "fun" when they may be every bit as musically and visually clean just because they aren't the typical rigid UIL shows, that does many amazing bands a disservice.

[bandmomma2024]

[criscubes]

9 hours ago, GarbagePatchKid said:

I was at C. The results are accurate. Maybe move Farmersville up a spot or two and move Bridge City back a spot or two. Very accurate judging IMO

I think Celina definitely deserved a top 2 spot and so did sulphur. Even if they were placed in either spot, I would disagree. Maybe I'm playing favorites by automatically putting SS in first, but I think their show is a little more demanding than Celina and it's marched just as good and played just as good. 

I do think Bridge city is definitely a state worthy band from what I saw yesterday at finals and prelims, but other bands marched cleaner like Farmersville and North Lamar. I would personally swap the placements of Farmersville and Bridgecity. Although they both played really great, Farmersville executed their show cleaner and imo had a more challenging show.

I'm not sure how I stand with the changes of the areas. It definitely sucks taking the state spot from bands like Paris and Canton. Some said that it's unfair to bands that got their state spots taken from them due to such challenging regions being moved into area C, but then I also ask. Is it fair for bands that have come so close for so long that have been a state contender for so long just to fall short? These changes have allowed more bands to advance per area. Area B now sent 6 bands I believe as compared to their usual 4. I'm not sure how that seems unfair and this year we get to see so many new bands at state that have been deserving of that opportunity for so long.

[SETXgal]

32 minutes ago, just.misty said:

It CAN be both, it's not an either or.  Don't hose shows that are more "fun" when they may be every bit as musically and visually clean just because they aren't the typical rigid UIL shows, that does many amazing bands a disservice.

Not hosing AT ALL. It is just where the new sheets & judges guidance go. I personally LOVEEEE DCI,&  watching the big all out performances. Barbers Hill was one of the most memorable shows I have seen this year, but they didn't place first either. For now, bands may have to decide if they want more entertaining BOA & DCI style shows or UIL criteria high scoring state finalists shows. In theory, there is a perfect happy medium. It is going to take time to figure out where that happy medium under the new criteria is though. A lot of it was done to close the gap created by budget sizes. Personally, I think 4A Area & State should be divided into D1 & D2 schools. State Cheer competition is divided, and done on the same day & same location. Band could be too. If they did that maybe they could adjust judging back to somewhere in the middle.

[SETXgal]

32 minutes ago, criscubes said:

I think Celina definitely deserved a top 2 spot and so did sulphur. Even if they were placed in either spot, I would disagree. Maybe I'm playing favorites by automatically putting SS in first, but I think their show is a little more demanding than Celina and it's marched just as good and played just as good. 

I do think Bridge city is definitely a state worthy band from what I saw yesterday at finals and prelims, but other bands marched cleaner like Farmersville and North Lamar. I would personally swap the placements of Farmersville and Bridgecity. Although they both played really great, Farmersville executed their show cleaner and imo had a more challenging show.

I'm not sure how I stand with the changes of the areas. It definitely sucks taking the state spot from bands like Paris and Canton. Some said that it's unfair to bands that got their state spots taken from them due to such challenging regions being moved into area C, but then I also ask. Is it fair for bands that have come so close for so long that have been a state contender for so long just to fall short? These changes have allowed more bands to advance per area. Area B now sent 6 bands I believe as compared to their usual 4. I'm not sure how that seems unfair and this year we get to see so many new bands at state that have been deserving of that opportunity for so long.

We thought SS would have had 1st too. Celina has clearly cracked the code though on how to design a top scoring UIL show even if it isn't as much of a crowd pleaser. Every judge ranked them 1st after finals. I've learned to go back & watch the videos taken from up high though. That often makes things a lot clearer.

[thejitfromband]

This is actually hilarious because celina swept yet their show is the epitome of parking and barking. I can't with certainty because I didn't pay much attention to their show at finals but it's the typical woodwind playing with brass marching and vice versa. So...

[just.me]

4 minutes ago, SETXgal said:

Not hosing AT ALL. It is just where the new sheets & judges guidance go. I personally LOVEEEE DCI,&  watching the big all out performances. Barbers Hill was one of the most memorable shows I have seen this year, but they didn't place first either. For now, bands may have to decide if they want more entertaining BOA & DCI style shows or UIL criteria high scoring state finalists shows. In theory, there is a perfect happy medium. It is going to take time to figure out where that happy medium under the new criteria is though. A lot of it was done to close the gap created by budget sizes. Personally, I think 4A Area & State should be divided into D1 & D2 schools. State Cheer competition is divided, and done on the same day & same location. Band could be too. If they did that maybe they could adjust judging back to somewhere in the middle.

I feel like sometimes the judging is a bit biased and that there are definitely pre-determined favorites.  And you can be a smaller budget band and advance - I've seen it and lived it.  Personally, not to knock the more rigid shows, but I think the ones that are more DCI like are more demanding physically and UIL should rethink their stance on shows like that.  Rigid does not mean better, cleaner, or more exceptional, and more lyrical and fluid does not mean less than, messier, or lacking.

[Cloud902]

6 minutes ago, just.misty said:

I feel like sometimes the judging is a bit biased and that there are definitely pre-determined favorites.  And you can be a smaller budget band and advance - I've seen it and lived it.  Personally, not to knock the more rigid shows, but I think the ones that are more DCI like are more demanding physically and UIL should rethink their stance on shows like that.  Rigid does not mean better, cleaner, or more exceptional, and more lyrical and fluid does not mean less than, messier, or lacking.

This, our band was told one judge wouldn’t let us go in the top spots even though other judges felt it was deserved. 4A esp area C is packed with really good bands, so I feel it starts to become more of who you know or who likes you at region and area. 

[thejitfromband]

7 minutes ago, Cloud902 said:

This, our band was told one judge wouldn’t let us go in the top spots even though other judges felt it was deserved. 4A esp area C is packed with really good bands, so I feel it starts to become more of who you know or who likes you at region and area. 

This right here. I saw some questionable favoring behavior regarding one band. Not pointing fingers but they might have swept...

[SETXgal]

3 minutes ago, just.misty said:

I feel like sometimes the judging is a bit biased and that there are definitely pre-determined favorites.  And you can be a smaller budget band and advance - I've seen it and lived it.  Personally, not to knock the more rigid shows, but I think the ones that are more DCI like are more demanding physically and UIL should rethink their stance on shows like that.  Rigid does not mean better, cleaner, or more exceptional, and more lyrical and fluid does not mean less than, messier, or lacking.

 

13 minutes ago, thejitfromband said:

This is actually hilarious because celina swept yet their show is the epitome of parking and barking. I can't with certainty because I didn't pay much attention to their show at finals but it's the typical woodwind playing with brass marching and vice versa. So...

We only saw them once & it didn't stand out as park & bark, but it was a long day. They did do some challenging formations & transitions but I don't recall if they were playing. I will probably watch their video this week. They clearly know what the judges are looking for better than any of us in here. Sometimes formations look messy from lower down, but clean from up high where the judges are.

[criscubes]

I definitely think while Celina is clean, SS was definitely first imo. Celina is boring and doesn't march a challenging show paired with challenging music like the other bands in area C. If the judges really claim that bands in Texas play While marching and not march the play, Celina, as clean and balanced as they are, SS was just as clean and balanced and they were by far more technical than Celina. If the judges can't follow their of rules and standards, bands and students who care will not be happy even if they qualify or not. Students understand that every single band works hard and practice with the idea that judges will be fair and unbiased, but every year it feels like all they care about is volume and size, and their favorite shows. I'm not sure if it's true what was said, but if a judge really did refuse to place a band higher just because he felt like it while the other judges all unanimously agreed to place them higher, then that judge shouldn't be judging. I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, bands or judges and parents or directors, but when you notice the score cards are being ignored and the whole audience agrees, favoritism is so apparent, and it should raise a few eyebrows.