DCI Rule Proposals

[T-ratbowieband]

you know, after this discussion of the new rules and stuff, i find that i just like brass and drums. No props, no amplification, no voice. To me it is SO much better. More traditional, not just a corps/band trying to get points by puttinga piece of plastic on the field.

[WestCoastCorpsFan]

  mbui said:

The emotion that I get when I hear the Santa Clara Vanguard rip out Adagio for Strings is the same emotion that I get when I hear the beginning of Ronald Reagan's beautiful intro from 2005. It's indescribable.

 

Emotional music is emotional music. Good music is good music. No matter what form its in.

 

Well, I guess that's cool. but, personally I dont get the same feeling. Emotional music is emotional music, but not everyone get's the same emotion.

[treblemaker]

  Quote

Brass and Percussion make up a Drum and Bugle Corps. If you add woodwinds, what would you call it? Drum, Bugle and Woodwind Corps? Or instead of Drum Corps International, why not call it Marching Band International dry.gif .

 

Electrophones (instruments that produce sound through electricity) are typically regarded as percussion instruments.....this is how they've been found acceptable and how they were admitted before woodwinds. I honestly don't think they'll ever allow woodwinds....well, maybe as soloist instruments or used to produce sound effects, but I don't see them entering the field, and even if they enter the field I don't see them ever leaving the front of it. I can't believe there are people out there who view Drum Corps as just "A marching band without woodwinds". There are people out there who actually think this.....it creates the open-ended idea that woodwinds can be added to it at a later time. It's not like that.....it was a unique kind of ensemble created for a unique kind of purpose and a unique kind of sound.

 

It doesn't have to be like that you know. Of course there are marching ensembles that woodwinds could join but it's not the same as DCI. There's nothing compared to it. It is it's own kind of breed. And your right that it would not be the same. But who is to say change is always bad? You should really put some thought into maybe about it from the view of a woodwind. And I'm not trying to change your mind but I'm just asking you to think about it.

 

  Quote

Woodwinds take hard work to achieve, they are a triumph of the human spirit. Obviously, they are a purely natural sound, and are a natural product of human achievement. Am I crazy for considering them?

 

Exactly. And no you are not crazy. At least I don't think so. "]

[WestCoastCorpsFan]

If you want to march DCI, and you play a woodwind instrument. You should learn a brass instrument. There are several corps that will actually teach you. Woodwinds arent bad instruments. but the set up of a drum corps would be...well, ruined... by adding them. Plus, Isn't it an extreme difficulty for some woodwind instruments to do such difficult visuals?

[Danpod]

  WestCoastCorpsFan said:

If you want to march DCI, and you play a woodwind instrument. You should learn a brass instrument. There are several corps that will actually teach you. Woodwinds arent bad instruments. but the set up of a drum corps would be...well, ruined... by adding them. Plus, Isn't it an extreme difficulty for some woodwind instruments to do such difficult visuals?

 

Agreed. As far as the visual thing goes, you bring up an interesting point. It's not so much the difficulty but just the fact that the drum corps hornline set up has such a streamlined look to it. I really wouldn't want that visual aspect of the activity to be compromised.

[HashBrownJM]

  Danpod said:

Agreed. As far as the visual thing goes, you bring up an interesting point. It's not so much the difficulty but just the fact that the drum corps hornline set up has such a streamlined look to it. I really wouldn't want that visual aspect of the activity to be compromised.

 

Seconded. I'm not a woodwind hater, but I do not think they belong on the drum corps field (for various reasons).

[takigan]

  lhsfluter said:

You should really put some thought into maybe about it from the view of a woodwind. And I'm not trying to change your mind but I'm just asking you to think about it.

 

I play Euphonium. I love the sound of the Symphony Orchestra, strings are really cool, and in the professional world the Symphony garners more respect than the Wind Band. I'm also "unofficially" a Euphonium Performance major in college and the chance to play in a Symphony would be really cool. But the Symphony doesn't allow Euphonium players in it....should I complain and demand that the members of the Symphony think about what it's like to be a Euphonium player and let us have a place in it because we would add a new color of sound to the ensemble? No....A Symphony is a Symphony and a Wind Ensemble is a Wind Ensemble, a Euphonium is made for Wind Ensemble and Violins are made for Symphonies (most of them wouldn't care to play with a Wind Ensemble anyways). The majority of the members would rather not have us in there anyway and the ones that aren't against it are simply indifferent (they don't care either way).

[treblemaker]

  takigan said:

I play Euphonium. I love the sound of the Symphony Orchestra, strings are really cool, and in the professional world the Symphony garners more respect than the Wind Band. I'm also "unofficially" a Euphonium Performance major in college and the chance to play in a Symphony would be really cool. But the Symphony doesn't allow Euphonium players in it....should I complain and demand that the members of the Symphony think about what it's like to be a Euphonium player and let us have a place in it because we would add a new color of sound to the ensemble? No....A Symphony is a Symphony and a Wind Ensemble is a Wind Ensemble, a Euphonium is made for Wind Ensemble and Violins are made for Symphonies (most of them wouldn't care to play with a Wind Ensemble anyways). The majority of the members would rather not have us in there anyway and the ones that aren't against it are simply indifferent (they don't care either way).

 

I'm not saying your wrong or anything because that does kinda suck but there is a difference between not having one instrument as opposed to and entire family of instruments.

[WestCoastCorpsFan]

  bluebellbrass07 said:

Great...now I feel bad about myself.

yeah seriously... sorry for being selfish....

[takigan]

  lhsfluter said:

I'm not saying your wrong or anything because that does kinda suck but there is a difference between not having one instrument as opposed to and entire family of instruments.

 

You merely asked me to try and understand what it must feel like to be a Woodwind player who can't play in a Brass Ensemble from an individual's perspective. The fact that the Euphonium is a single instrument versus an entire instrument family that's being excluded from an ensemble bears no relevance to what you've asked me to do. I was asked to relate as an individual so that I could better understand with an open mind the position a Woodwind player is in, being who they are before I made up said mind that woodwinds shouldn't be included in the activity. I think that they should understand that you shouldn't compromise the integrity of a special banquet of sound just so that they can get fair treatment as an instrumental group.

 

The only reason such a sentiment exists is due to the fact that woodwinds are used in High School Marching Bands, which are nothing more than a group of instrumentalists that provide halftime entertainment at football games. Drum Corps is an entirely different activity, an entirely different subject. And since High School Marching Bands are more greatly influenced by Drum Corps than Drum Corps are by Marching Bands, and since Drum Corps is also the model they strive to be, I think it would make more sense to remove Woodwinds from the High School Marching Band rather than include them in DCI. That way a cleaner, more fluid sound can be obtained with minimal loss in volume due to having all the deadweight instruments--that aren't adding enough volume to the soundwall to justify the loss in tonality their presence creates--removed completely from the ensemble (with the exception of featured solos). The loss of color the woodwinds create can be made up for with an increase in synth textures.....since electronics can be turned up to match the intensity of-- and even overpower-- the brass, if that's what the director wants to do.

 

But I'm being a little radical here, I know, lol......This would never happen and I'm not saying it should. I like listening to marching band, and I appreciate each section in its own way (except bass clarinets--the one instrument you can't hear unless everybody else shuts up, lol), and I'm not trying to be racist or anything but woodwinds need to understand they're not equal to the brass on that field.....the activity was made for brass....the 'woods are expendable. The woodwinds are just posers that vyed for equal rights and got them, but they should know their place.

[Skippy]

  takigan said:

but some of the greatest times of my life have been sitting in the Alamodome getting blown away by pure waves of brass and afterwards turning to my friends and going "Holy Sh**!!! That was AWESOME!!!".

 

I have found woodwind features awesome at times. Lassiter 98 comes to mind.

[Skippy]

  mbui said:

Emotional music is emotional music. Good music is good music. No matter what form its in.

 

Very well put.

[Skippy]

  WestCoastCorpsFan said:

Isn't it an extreme difficulty for some woodwind instruments to do such difficult visuals?

 

 

I don't know what exactly you mean by extreme difficulty, why would it be harder for them to move their bodies in certain ways?

 

 

But I haven't considered the visual aspect of it before, that's actually a really good point.

[Skippy]

  takigan said:

I play Euphonium. I love the sound of the Symphony Orchestra, strings are really cool

 

Speaking of strings, I'd like those legalized too now. I hadn't thought about it.

 

  Quote

But the Symphony doesn't allow Euphonium players in it....should I complain and demand that the members of the Symphony think about what it's like to be a Euphonium player and let us have a place in it because we would add a new color of sound to the ensemble?

 

It's not that the symphony doesn't allow Euphoniums in the orchestra, they don't use them because there is very little repertoire that requires it. The difference in drum corps is that arrangements can be made for any instrumentation.

[Skippy]

  takigan said:

High School Marching Bands, which are nothing more than a group of instrumentalists that provide halftime entertainment at football games.

 

I bet there are many people on this forum, myself included, that would completely disagree with that statement.

 

  Quote

And since High School Marching Bands are more greatly influenced by Drum Corps than Drum Corps are by Marching Bands

 

You do realize that Drum Corps have just recently begun adding things that marching band has had for a long, long time right?

 

  Quote

that aren't adding enough volume to the soundwall to justify the loss in tonality their presence creates--removed completely from the ensemble (with the exception of featured solos).

 

What are your feelings on mic'd woodwind solos in drum corps? I know that volume wise and in other wise they are impractical, but when I picture woodwinds being used, I'm thinking more about solos here and there.

 

  Quote

The loss of color the woodwinds create can be made up for with an increase in synth textures.....since electronics can be turned up to match the intensity of-- and even overpower-- the brass, if that's what the director wants to do.

 

You can't replicate the color of an instrument through a synthetic electronic sound. Certainly, you can replace them with electronics, but it wouldn't sound the same.

[Skippy]

Devil's advocate can be fun sometimes.

 

 

 

What do people think about legalizing french horns and trombones?

 

 

I think a soaring horn solo/soli with or without amplification could be really cool. Likewise for a rippin' jazz trombone solo.

 

Neither one could really be used for marching I don't think. Just because of their nature, French horns would be very difficult to march with and sound good. You can march with a trombone, but with all the close pass-throughs that we see today it would be impossible with the slide.

 

Although somewhat impractical as marching instruments, I think they could be used effectively as soloist instruments.

 

And I mean, they're brass aren't they?

[WestCoastCorpsFan]

  Skippy said:

I bet there are many people on this forum, myself included, that would completely disagree with that statement.

You do realize that Drum Corps have just recently begun adding things that marching band has had for a long, long time right?

What are your feelings on mic'd woodwind solos in drum corps? I know that volume wise and in other wise they are impractical, but when I picture woodwinds being used, I'm thinking more about solos here and there.

You can't replicate the color of an instrument through a synthetic electronic sound. Certainly, you can replace them with electronics, but it wouldn't sound the same.

 

Maybe, you should go march Cadets or something... dear lord.

Edited February 2, 2008 by WestCoastCorpsFan

[treblemaker]

  Quote

The only reason such a sentiment exists is due to the fact that woodwinds are used in High School Marching Bands, which are nothing more than a group of instrumentalists that provide halftime entertainment at football games.

 

This is almost a stab to my heart in what marching band truly means to me and probably others. Football games are only a practice performance for the competition we will have the next day. The fans at a football game do not come to see the band so during halftime it is their chance to go get a hot dog or maybe a slice of pizza. They talk through our performances and quite frankly don't understand the true art we put out on that field each Friday night. And for you to say what we work so hard at for 4 months means nothing more than halftime entertainment then I guess you don't truly understand the passion of each marcher brass, woodwind, or percussion on the high school marching band field.

[WestCoastCorpsFan]

  lhsfluter said:

This is almost a stab to my heart in what marching band truly means to me and probably others. Football games are only a practice performance for the competition we will have the next day. The fans at a football game do not come to see the band so during halftime it is their chance to go get a hot dog or maybe a slice of pizza. They talk through our performances and quite frankly don't understand the true art we put out on that field each Friday night. And for you to say what we work so hard at for 4 months means nothing more than halftime entertainment then I guess you don't truly understand the passion of each marcher brass, woodwind, or percussion on the high school marching band field.

 

Dont forget the guard!!!

[treblemaker]

  WestCoastCorpsFan said:

Dont forget the guard!!!

 

Oh gosh! I'm so sorry. The guard is very important!

[takigan]

  lhsfluter said:

This is almost a stab to my heart in what marching band truly means to me and probably others. Football games are only a practice performance for the competition we will have the next day. The fans at a football game do not come to see the band so during halftime it is their chance to go get a hot dog or maybe a slice of pizza. They talk through our performances and quite frankly don't understand the true art we put out on that field each Friday night. And for you to say what we work so hard at for 4 months means nothing more than halftime entertainment then I guess you don't truly understand the passion of each marcher brass, woodwind, or percussion on the high school marching band field.

 

You see the competitions as being the most important thing. But keep in mind your program would not exist without the support of your district, and if ya'll didn't perform at football games the district wouldn't support it, only in special cases is this not true (UT Arlington for example). But even so, Marching Programs tell the communities that support them to shove it and perform music that only the art community (Band Directors, judges, musicians, marching arts advocates etc.) can appreciate and they do it entirely for themselves. It means something to you as a performer so you don't care that no one wants to listen to it and so you push on. The kinds of shows Marching Bands these days do is mainly due to a concession made by the public. It's still music, and they know you're learning complicated stuff in the process that will serve you better later on in life, so they're willing to be bored by it for the sake of that. This is just the community as a whole though....I'd be lying if I said that no one likes it.....just that most of the mainstream public doesn't.

 

  Skippy said:

I bet there are many people on this forum, myself included, that would completely disagree with that statement.

 

Spare me the bluntness and provide me an argument with substance other than "mmm, well I disagree". Marching Band was created for the single purpose of halftime entertainment. It means different things to people under different contexts nowadays, mostly due to more theatric spinoffs of the art including DCI and Blast! ....and that's a great thing. I'm really not sure how else to respond to this ?_?

 

  Quote

You do realize that Drum Corps have just recently begun adding things that marching band has had for a long, long time right?

 

Explain.....I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just can't think of anything other than microphones and amps. In Marching Bands being inspired by Corps, I was referring to the composition of the drill, the marching style, small aesthetic elements like cymbal carriage, visuals, the structure of the musical passages among many other things.

 

  Quote

What are your feelings on mic'd woodwind solos in drum corps? I know that volume wise and in other wise they are impractical, but when I picture woodwinds being used, I'm thinking more about solos here and there.

 

Mic'd solos are a no no IMO, regardless of what it is that's mic'd. I'm not really sure about singular woodwind instruments being used for solos in the Front Ensemble. Even a slide whistle can be considered a Woodwind instrument in some regards, though it's actually a percussion instrument. I'd stay away from that one simply because it creates excuses for further legislation.

 

  Quote

You can't replicate the color of an instrument through a synthetic electronic sound. Certainly, you can replace them with electronics, but it wouldn't sound the same.

 

True. But what you're looking for is an artistic, interesting sound. You'd lose the element of genuine woodwind sound, that's true. But in my view it's a small price to pay for my greater vision (even though, again it is quite radical and would never be realized).

 

One more thing, you can combine quotes from different people into a single post. No need to clutter the board with multiple posts in a row that address different things from different people.

[bluebellbrass07]

  takigan said:

Spare me the bluntness and provide me an argument with substance other than "mmm, well I disagree". Marching Band was created for the single purpose of halftime entertainment.

 

I believe they were originally used in parades....but I could be wrong

[Band_Person]

  takigan said:

Spare me the bluntness and provide me an argument with substance other than "mmm, well I disagree". Marching Band was created for the single purpose of halftime entertainment.

 

Marching bands pre-date football. Military marching bands even pre-date the United States of America.

The military marched on drill fields to the music of marching bands.

Drum lines/fife and drum corps/drum and bugle corps led soldiers into battle along with the Color Guard who carried the national flag and the battalion flag.

 

We still retain the terms "Drum Line" and Color Guard" today.

 

Football began as a pass time for military troops and was played on the drill field.

If anything, football owes it's existence to marching, not the other way around.

[treblemaker]

I believe "Yankee Doodle" is best known played by a piccolo. And as far as I know the piccolo is a woodwind.

[Skippy]

  takigan said:

Marching Band was created for the single purpose of halftime entertainment. It means different things to people under different contexts nowadays, mostly due to more theatric spinoffs of the art including DCI and Blast! ....and that's a great thing. I'm really not sure how else to respond to this ?_?

 

Earlier you didn't say that it was created for that, you said that currently that's all it is.

 

  Quote

Explain.....I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just can't think of anything other than microphones and amps. In Marching Bands being inspired by Corps, I was referring to the composition of the drill, the marching style, small aesthetic elements like cymbal carriage, visuals, the structure of the musical passages among many other things.

 

I think it goes both ways. Bands have influenced corps, and corps have influenced bands. Especially in cases where there have been overlaps of top instructors working in both bands and drum corps. A very specific example being the Cavaliers 95 famous "double-helix" drill move, which was actually used in Spring High School's BOA championship show in 93.

 

  Quote

One more thing, you can combine quotes from different people into a single post. No need to clutter the board with multiple posts in a row that address different things from different people.

 

Yeah, sorry about that, I wasn't thinking.

 

  WestCoastCorpsFan said:

Maybe, you should go march Cadets or something... dear lord.

 

I appreciate the suggestion, but I am currently committed to another corps.

Edited February 4, 2008 by Skippy