Woodwinds in DCI?

[HashBrownJM]

  treblemaker said:

I may be stubborn but I'm also very selfless. If it happens after I am too old then so be it. But it least it is happening. And that's all that really matters to me.

 

Ok.

 

  treblemaker said:

Never say never..

 

Did I say never? I believe I said maybe.

 

 

  treblemaker said:

We've marched in the rain before. Sure you can endure more rain damage then we can but to an extent it damages your instruments too. It's not like woodwind players haven't been taking care of their instruments for only a day. We know what to do with them and how to take care of them just the same as you. It's not like we are going to go in and be like "Oh darn my spring popped out I guess I'm out for the season guys". Most good musicians can fix their own instruments. I know that I can fix almost anything on my flute minus when someone stomps on it and drags it on 5 yards of concrete because they weren't looking where they were running but that's another story.

 

 

None of these issues you have brought up stops marching band from stopping so why would it ever hold up drum corps?

 

Where did I ever imply that woodwind players have been only playing their instruments for a single day? If you want to try and exaggerate things to try and illustrate a point, you're missing the issue I'm bringing up in the first place. I could care less about your spring, I'm talking about all that crap about pads and whatnot. Maybe a little drizzle won't bother you, but turn up the water and I'm sure it'll hurt your horn a lot more than it hurts mine.

 

A little rain never hurt a brass horn. We shower with our horns, for crying out loud.

 

And to the person who brought up the pit thing, I can think of times during spring training when they had to whip out the big tarps to protect their stuff. So no, they're not impervious to rain damage, either.

 

If you want to create a circuit of your own for marching bands (like listed above), be my guest.

[HashBrownJM]

  TRUMPet said:

I think the biggest inhibitor is realy logistical. Woodwind instruments are more delacate, have to have a huge supply of reeds (and half of em end up sucking) and they cant get wet. Most corps dont want to worry about all that and having to repair instruments on the road can be a huge issue if the right parts arent onsite.

 

And they'd also have to higher another staff doubling costs (wich are high enough as of now)

 

I'm gonna have to agree with this, but conditionally. If we're assuming that they raise the corps membership if they add woodwinds (which they would have to in order to get any sort of comparable volume) then yes, they'd have to higher more staff.

 

More staff = more money spent. Plus, where would you put all the extra instruments? Buy another equipment trailer? Rent a little U-Haul for the summer? That's more money, too.

[Xenon]

More Members = More Corps Fees In.

[Skippy]

That's a good point.

[Danpod]

More Money = More arse for you, the valued consumer.

[adam12343210]

I'm sure this has been stated before in this thread, but I can't be bothered to read all 4 pages. It's Drum and Bugle Corps, not drum, bugle, and woodwind corps. The only way I can see woodwinds in dci is maybe for a mic'd solo, but dci won't allow mic's on horns anyways so I don't think that that would happen within 10 years, though dci has proved my initial instincts wrong before.

[Xenon]

  adam12343210 said:

I'm sure this has been stated before in this thread, but I can't be bothered to read all 4 pages. It's Drum and Bugle Corps, not drum, bugle, and woodwind corps. The only way I can see woodwinds in dci is maybe for a mic'd solo, but dci won't allow mic's on horns anyways so I don't think that that would happen within 10 years, though dci has proved my initial instincts wrong before.

 

Bugle =/= Brass

 

Bugle is a subset of Brass instruments. And DCI in the past altered the rules to allow Brass instruments instead of just Bugles. And there are also a lot of pit instruments which are not drums. And also Voice.

[treblemaker]

  HashBrownJM said:

Where did I ever imply that woodwind players have been only playing their instruments for a single day? If you want to try and exaggerate things to try and illustrate a point, you're missing the issue I'm bringing up in the first place. I could care less about your spring, I'm talking about all that crap about pads and whatnot. Maybe a little drizzle won't bother you, but turn up the water and I'm sure it'll hurt your horn a lot more than it hurts mine.

 

A little rain never hurt a brass horn. We shower with our horns, for crying out loud.

 

And to the person who brought up the pit thing, I can think of times during spring training when they had to whip out the big tarps to protect their stuff. So no, they're not impervious to rain damage, either.

 

If you want to create a circuit of your own for marching bands (like listed above), be my guest.

 

Just curious how often does it down pour during an event? (A serious question not a sarcastic one)

 

 

  HashBrownJM said:

I'm gonna have to agree with this, but conditionally. If we're assuming that they raise the corps membership if they add woodwinds (which they would have to in order to get any sort of comparable volume) then yes, they'd have to higher more staff.

 

More staff = more money spent. Plus, where would you put all the extra instruments? Buy another equipment trailer? Rent a little U-Haul for the summer? That's more money, too.

 

Like Xenon said with more people comes more money. Also that would open up more sponsors that focus only on woodwind things.

 

 

  adam12343210 said:

I'm sure this has been stated before in this thread, but I can't be bothered to read all 4 pages. It's Drum and Bugle Corps, not drum, bugle, and woodwind corps. The only way I can see woodwinds in dci is maybe for a mic'd solo, but dci won't allow mic's on horns anyways so I don't think that that would happen within 10 years, though dci has proved my initial instincts wrong before.

 

If you are going to reply I wish you would read all the way through because things like this are really annoying.

 

Names can be changed. Ie. BOA=MFA

 

And I do believe that there are more than bugles marching in modern day DCI....

Edited November 26, 2008 by treblemaker

[adam12343210]

  Xenon said:

Bugle =/= Brass

 

Bugle is a subset of Brass instruments. And DCI in the past altered the rules to allow Brass instruments instead of just Bugles. And there are also a lot of pit instruments which are not drums. And also Voice.

 

What I mean is interpreted loosely. As in bugle is a subset of brass and not woodwinds, so I take that to mean brass. And alot of people (including my bd and percussion instructor) count pit as a part of drums because drums are a subset of percussion.

Edited November 26, 2008 by adam12343210

[Xenon]

  adam12343210 said:

What I mean is interpreted loosely. As in bugle is a subset of brass and not woodwinds, so I take that to mean brass. And alot of people (including my bd and percussion instructor) count pit as a part of drums because drums are a subset of percussion.

 

And Brass is just a subset of Wind Instruments. Therefore, by that logic, Woodwinds should be allowable.

[adam12343210]

  Xenon said:

And Brass is just a subset of Wind Instruments. Therefore, by that logic, Woodwinds should be allowable.

 

I didn't mean that loosely... My big thing about woodwinds in dci for anything besides solos or small features is just that I don't think they would really add anything like they do in band without many more consequences that out weigh the good things that it would cause. If they got accepted they'd probably have to make the member limit higher, which would cause money problems (even though they could be solved, it could get really complicated and a lot of people wouldn't want to deal with that). Not to mention that they can barely be heard out of anything other than a feature/solo (sound familiar?).You also have to remember about old school fans that would just forget about dci entirely due to woodwinds being added (heck, there are almost as many old school fans as current fans, maybe more), and that would drastically hurt the amount of money that dci gets (which makes it even more complicated to increase the member limit). Dci is already having a bit of trouble with money as is (no espn show this year).

Edited November 27, 2008 by adam12343210

[HashBrownJM]

  Xenon said:

More Members = More Corps Fees In.

 

Will it equate? Enough to keep the big corps at least paying the same ratio they are with the current membership limit?

[HashBrownJM]

  treblemaker said:

Just curious how often does it down pour during an event? (A serious question not a sarcastic one)

 

How about during rehearsal? Which is much more likely as we rehearse a lot more than we perform.

 

  treblemaker said:

Like Xenon said with more people comes more money. Also that would open up more sponsors that focus only on woodwind things.

 

Like I replied to him, maybe it would be financially viable if whatever they're paying right now ends up being proportionally the same.

 

  treblemaker said:

If you are going to reply I wish you would read all the way through because things like this are really annoying.

 

Names can be changed. Ie. BOA=MFA

 

Names CAN be changed. But I hope they wouldn't alter the entire activity and change it's name. It seems like if they're going to do something that dramatic, just create a new unit entirely.

 

  treblemaker said:

And I do believe that there are more than bugles marching in modern day DCI....

 

You're right. They're three-valve brass, which aren't technically bugles. However, they do bear more resemblance to a bugle than any woodwind instrument does.

[treblemaker]

  adam12343210 said:

I didn't mean that loosely... My big thing about woodwinds in dci for anything besides solos or small features is just that I don't think they would really add anything like they do in band without many more consequences that out weigh the good things that it would cause. If they got accepted they'd probably have to make the member limit higher, which would cause money problems (even though they could be solved, it could get really complicated and a lot of people wouldn't want to deal with that). Not to mention that they can barely be heard out of anything other than a feature/solo (sound familiar?).You also have to remember about old school fans that would just forget about dci entirely due to woodwinds being added (heck, there are almost as many old school fans as current fans, maybe more), and that would drastically hurt the amount of money that dci gets (which makes it even more complicated to increase the member limit). Dci is already having a bit of trouble with money as is (no espn show this year).

 

 

You are really talking in circles Adam and you aren't really making any justifiable argument.

 

How can you argue that woodwinds wouldn't bring anything? I'm not delusional in thinking that we are ever going to be as loud as brass but we do add color. And can do somethings that brass can't do and the same goes for brass doing things woodwinds can't do.

 

 

  HashBrownJM said:

How about during rehearsal? Which is much more likely as we rehearse a lot more than we perform.

 

Do you continue rehearsal in heavy rain?

 

 

  HashBrownJM said:

Names CAN be changed. But I hope they wouldn't alter the entire activity and change it's name. It seems like if they're going to do something that dramatic, just create a new unit entirely.

 

Creating a new unit would not be the same thing. It's a transition that needs to happen. I'm not expecting anything to happen tomorrow.

 

 

  HashBrownJM said:

You're right. They're three-valve brass, which aren't technically bugles. However, they do bear more resemblance to a bugle than any woodwind instrument does.

 

They will when I make my bell front flute! Jk...

[HashBrownJM]

  treblemaker said:

You are really talking in circles Adam and you aren't really making any justifiable argument.

 

How can you argue that woodwinds wouldn't bring anything? I'm not delusional in thinking that we are ever going to be as loud as brass but we do add color. And can do somethings that brass can't do and the same goes for brass doing things woodwinds can't do.

 

Not me. I'll let him respond to that.

 

  treblemaker said:

Do you continue rehearsal in heavy rain?

 

In the Bluecoats, generally. Speaking from experience, this summer was a lot wetter than the summer of 2007, but we still marched. It becomes especially important if you're behind or relearning drill/changing a part of your show. So yes, we marched in a good deal of rain this summer, or at least a lot more than we did my rookie year.

 

  treblemaker said:

Creating a new unit would not be the same thing. It's a transition that needs to happen. I'm not expecting anything to happen tomorrow.

 

Why does there need to be a transition? If there was a new group that performed at just as high a level and had woodwinds, what's the difference? Is it the fact that you want to say you marched in DCI or that you want to perform in a highly trained and skilled performing unit?

 

  treblemaker said:

They will when I make my bell front flute! Jk...

[treblemaker]

  HashBrownJM said:

Why does there need to be a transition? If there was a new group that performed at just as high a level and had woodwinds, what's the difference? Is it the fact that you want to say you marched in DCI or that you want to perform in a highly trained and skilled performing unit?

 

 

I want to perform with one and compete against more. Starting over will just lead to dead ends.

[HashBrownJM]

  treblemaker said:

I want to perform with one and compete against more. Starting over will just lead to dead ends.

 

You can't say that with any degree of certainty. And you certainly can't tell me that when you tell me and other people that we can't know what the BoD, corps directors, or judges are thinking of doing for sure.

 

What I see up there is an excuse to try and reject all good points made against your case.

[adam12343210]

  treblemaker said:

You are really talking in circles Adam and you aren't really making any justifiable argument.

 

How can you argue that woodwinds wouldn't bring anything? I'm not delusional in thinking that we are ever going to be as loud as brass but we do add color. And can do somethings that brass can't do and the same goes for brass doing things woodwinds can't do.

 

 

*sigh* Let me break this down

 

-I support woodwinds for small features/solos. They can make beautiful small features/solos that sound more pleasing than any brass solo/feature (though I doubt that dci would even allow this to happen, I certainly wouldn't mind it). I agree with you that woodwinds...

  treblemaker said:

can do somethings that brass can't do

though I don't see how this matters outside of a solo/small feature (feel free to prove me wrong, I'm actually expecting you too).

 

-I think that the addition of woodwinds for anything other than that would have many unintended consequences. Like how a huge amount of current marchers and age outs (which I'd say make up at least 1/4 of all of dci's fan base) are very anti-woodwind in dci, so they'd probably stop being involved in the activity. That would cause more money loss that dci might not be able to handle.

 

In conclusion, woodwinds aren't worth it to me in the long run for anything besides small features or solos.

 

 

And besides, the way that your arguing your point makes me think that you could easily be determined enough to learn a brass instrument .

Edited November 27, 2008 by adam12343210

[rpd]

  adam12343210 said:

-I think that the addition of woodwinds for anything other than that would have many unintended consequences. Like how a huge amount of current marchers and age outs (which I'd say make up at least 1/4 of all of dci's fan base) are very anti-woodwind in dci, so they'd probably stop being involved in the activity. That would cause more money loss that dci might not be able to handle.

 

Just playing devils advocate, but would those people ever consider the Saxophone? The sax is in fact made out of brass. And it is louder than any of the woodwinds. You can even get them in Silver Lacquer to match the rest of the bell-front instruments.

 

Also it would be much easier for people to learn the sax, because the fingerings are almost exactly the same on flutes, and pretty similar to the clarinet. Although the transition from woodwind to brass isn't that difficult. I was learning Mellophone earlier this year for drum corp and I was making a good buzz the second day I had it. I gave it up though to focus on my sax and getting into college, ill pick it up again next year though.

 

Also, from an argument earlier, if we want to technical on the names, DCI stands for Drum Corp International. Nowhere in there does the name include wind instruments. Its the corps themselves who call themselves Drum & Bugle Corps.

 

Even as a Sax and Clarinet player, I don't mind the way DCI is. There's some things that are just meant for different types of music. You'll never see a brass instrument outside the Trombone and Trumpet in Rock music (or Ska), and very rarely in Jazz.

Edited November 28, 2008 by rpd

[adam12343210]

  rpd said:

You'll never see a brass instrument outside the Trombone and Trumpet in Rock music (or Ska), and very rarely in Jazz.

 

 

So true. Sax owns jazz and rightfully so.

[Xenon]

  adam12343210 said:

So true. Sax owns jazz and rightfully so.

 

Clarinet needs to make a jazz comeback. <_>

[adam12343210]

  Xenon said:

Clarinet needs to make a jazz comeback.

 

 

Make it happen .

[Xenon]

  adam12343210 said:

Make it happen .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6XF4Yf6qNI

[adam12343210]

  Xenon said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6XF4Yf6qNI

 

awesome intro!

[treblemaker]

  HashBrownJM said:

You can't say that with any degree of certainty. And you certainly can't tell me that when you tell me and other people that we can't know what the BoD, corps directors, or judges are thinking of doing for sure.

 

What I see up there is an excuse to try and reject all good points made against your case.

 

Or maybe I just like picking fights.

 

  adam12343210 said:

-I think that the addition of woodwinds for anything other than that would have many unintended consequences. Like how a huge amount of current marchers and age outs (which I'd say make up at least 1/4 of all of dci's fan base) are very anti-woodwind in dci, so they'd probably stop being involved in the activity. That would cause more money loss that dci might not be able to handle.

 

Sure some may be lost. I'm not denying that but you don't think new people would be interested with the addition of woodwinds?

 

  adam12343210 said:

In conclusion, woodwinds aren't worth it to me in the long run for anything besides small features or solos.

 

As a percussion player I would not expect you to know much about sound from wind players. Much like I know pretty much nothing about percussion. I know what sounds bad(mostly). But woodwinds add more than just an "ensemble flair". We add a certain color layer above the brass and also bring a lot of warmth when needed. Sound is more than just volume.. It's richness too. And I'm not saying brass aren't rich but woodwinds just add something to it and only make it that much better.

 

 

  adam12343210 said:

And besides, the way that your arguing your point makes me think that you could easily be determined enough to learn a brass instrument .

 

Again if you had read the entire thread you would know that I am learning a brass instrument.

 

  rpd said:

Although the transition from woodwind to brass isn't that difficult. I was learning Mellophone earlier this year for drum corp and I was making a good buzz the second day I had it. I gave it up though to focus on my sax and getting into college, ill pick it up again next year though.

 

Exactly what I am doing. I'll get myself into college and then pick it up again.

 

 

  rpd said:

Also, from an argument earlier, if we want to technical on the names, DCI stands for Drum Corp International. Nowhere in there does the name include wind instruments. Its the corps themselves who call themselves Drum & Bugle Corps.