UIL worst system ever?

[treblemaker]

UIL Worst System Ever

 

I realize that thread is from forever ago but it got me thinking. Can't the same thing happen in the BOA system with one Judge giving a band a 17 and another judge in the same caption giving them a 14?

 

I just find it interesting that they point it out as a flaw in the UIL system. Obviously it is annoying with inconsistencies like that but I really find it hard to believe that that only happens in UIL.

 

Thoughts?

[Danpod]

There are many reasons why UIL seems to be so inconsistent. The system is by no means perfect. I think the biggest reason for the weird gaps simply has to do with how UIL is judged.

 

Here's an example. In BOA, you have four judges who are each responsible for their own Music category (Music Individual, Music Ensemble, or Music General Effect). In UIL, you have three judges who are each responsible for all the main Music categories (Brass/Woodwind/Percussion Performance, Musicianship, Ensemble Performance). With that much responsibility, one judge may hear different things or focus in more on a specific Music category than the other two judges.

 

Like I've said before, UIL rewards consistent execution from all aspects of the program. In terms of Music, if a program is flawed in one of those music categories, it will show up in the score.

 

The inconsistencies in UIL don't normally show up in a BOA system because the BOA system spreads musical and visual responsibilities out to multiple judges. BOA isn't a perfect system either.

[takigan]

Thoughts? Sure.....plenty.

 

The real advantage of BOA is that they use MORE judges in the judging, not necessarily their scoring system...that way the individual opinions of a single judge don't matter as much and you have a smoother looking curve of scores. The scoring system helps too as you have specialized scoring elements and you can assign specialist judges to those specialist elements, as well the more subjective scores (namely GE) getting more judges assigned to them to balance out that subjectivity.

 

UIL's problem is that they bring in such a small number of generic band directors who spend all their time up in marching band towers looking and listening to everything has a whole. The standards to qualify as a judge aren't that difficult to meet as a teacher (I think you have to have like 10 years of teaching experience, plus you have to have a certain number of Division 1s with your bands, among a couple other things) so you can have young judges in their early 30s judging alongside old codgers who retired back when UIL first came out. That alone is going to create some inconsistent judging. Also keep in mind if one of the judges is a percussion specialist, the bands that have stronger drumlines and more exciting percussion books are going to get higher scores, since the judge will be predisposed to hearing the quality of that section of the ensemble more than the others. Same goes for directors that are Guard specialists....the bands with stronger guards but weaker marching across the band will tend to get higher marching scores from that judge, but lower scores among the others.

 

In the early days of UIL, this system made the most sense and it worked, because the show designs were much more generic (especially with all of the military-style bands playing nothing but marches back in those days). All you had to do was look at the lines and listen to the quality of the chords that followed a very predictable progression. And any band that wasn't military was still using the old "opener, ballad, finale" setup, so you had a standard system that was being used to judge a standard idea.

 

But with all the abstract art, electronics, running and crawling around that goes on these days.....it's difficult to judge consistently. There are judges out there who feel you should never break rank/form for the entire duration of the show. It's a turn off to them to see bands do this, while on the other hand, a younger judge may see it as artistic and visually complimentary to the drill....he may give band bonus points for doing this. The organization has lost sight of the standard, and with no standard you're going to have wild judges.....lots of them.

 

The perfect system would have whole team of judges from various backgrounds assigning scores for a plethora of specialized elements. Though that would be extremely costly. And UIL isn't always that bad.....2004 was just a bad year for judging as a whole. That was the year of the infamous 3rd/21st/31st placement for SFA in Music.

 

I highly disagree with the guy who said Texas Band Directors shouldn't be allowed to judge UIL, especially State. The music division of UIL is an organization of certified Texas music educators.....UIL competitions are supposed to reflect academic achievement that is taught by those teachers in various disciplines. I personally believe (under the current system mind you) ONLY Texas secondary school band directors should be allowed to judge marching band contests where the standard consists of what is taught in the State of Texas under those standards: the very content that is taught by THOSE TEACHERS. There is no one else more qualified to judge under those standards.

[Xenon]

I still stand by all of my analysis in that thread.

 

Judging inconsistencies exist in all circuits, not just UIL. A caption rank difference of 10 (out of 14 bands) is completely inexcusable (Happened at BOA) as is a caption rank difference of 8 (out of 10 bands) (UIL).

 

People normally excuse Score systems of their ranking differences because if the scores are close, then they don't call the contest. Well, that is because the judge just effectively removed himself from the contest and his caption no longer means anything. Just as a judge that has a wide range in his scores over-weights himself and takes control of the contest.

 

A ranking system fixes such problems by forcing all judges to have equal weight.

 

I feel that the problem with UIL's State judging lies in the fact that the scoring rubrics and handbooks are not as sophisticated as BOA's and the fact that they keep choosing judges that are not intimately familiar with UIL's (significantly different) judging ideals and methods.

[Skippy]

  Xenon said:

I feel that the problem with UIL's State judging lies in the fact that the scoring rubrics and handbooks are not as sophisticated as BOA's and the fact that they keep choosing judges that are not intimately familiar with UIL's (significantly different) judging ideals and methods.

 

To go along with that, I once had a chat with someone on the inside, and they said their biggest complaint was that when they do bring in judges from other places (which I think COULD be ok), is that the only training any of the judges have is looking over the sheets at dinner the night before the contest. I mean, no wonder great band directors from other places are at odds with Texas directors that understand the system. (For example, Alfred Watkins of Lassiter, obviously a smart person, was the one who gave SFA the 3 in music that someone mentioned earlier, but he found himself at odds with those from other places).

[TRtrumpet]

At our UIL regional last Saturday we had three judges and our score was: 1 2 3.

 

That's pretty inconsistent :/

[Donezo]

I've never really had a problem with all the judging inconsistencies at 5A SMBC. The field has just gotten so deep over the past ten years that there are always at least 20 legitimate finalist contenders. Of course everyone's not going to agree on who was the best; that's why we have five judges. The 2004 and 2006 results are all over the place, but if you look at the rank point totals there was a very clearly defined top 10 both times. At the 2006 contest, the top 10 bands all had at least three top 10 votes. Nobody else had more than one. That's really about as good as you can ask for at a contest with that level of talent.

[xraidercutiex]

I really don't think the UIL system is THAT bad...I like that UIL judges for accuracy, precision, & execution, whereas it seems like BOA judges mostly for show. And while that should count, it shouldn't be EVERYTHING...

[hey10]

  TRtrumpet said:

At our UIL regional last Saturday we had three judges and our score was: 1 2 3.

 

That's pretty inconsistent :/

 

Coronado High School (El Paso) in 2004 had something like 1,1,2,2, and 13 out of 15 bands at the Area A competition. They barely squeaked into state that year tying with Bel Air High School.

[capncrunk]

ya there are flaws in both systems but i still think it's pretty messed up how at area this year we got 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 in prelims and then in finals we got 1,1,1,1,6 .... the 6 was pretty random if you ask me. i don't know, i guess im just a little bitter that we were 3rd just because of one judge. :/

[pokerface]

  capncrunk said:

ya there are flaws in both systems but i still think it's pretty messed up how at area this year we got 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 in prelims and then in finals we got 1,1,1,1,6 .... the 6 was pretty random if you ask me. i don't know, i guess im just a little bitter that we were 3rd just because of one judge. :/

 

 

If you implemented the "bad judge" rule that UIL uses in finals. You guys would be 1st place.

 

rule- two 1's in music and 1 in marching. Nullifies the lower placements.

Edited October 29, 2008 by pokerface

[DEH20]

  capncrunk said:

ya there are flaws in both systems but i still think it's pretty messed up how at area this year we got 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 in prelims and then in finals we got 1,1,1,1,6 .... the 6 was pretty random if you ask me. i don't know, i guess im just a little bitter that we were 3rd just because of one judge. :/

 

you need to verify your facts before you make these comments. In Prelims, you got 3,2,1,1,3.....In Finals, you got 4,2,3,1,6. That's why you finished 3rd.

[capncrunk]

  DEH20 said:

you need to verify your facts before you make these comments. In Prelims, you got 3,2,1,1,3.....In Finals, you got 4,2,3,1,6. That's why you finished 3rd.

 

you might be right about finals because that info came from a student but im pretty sure about prelims because my band director told us. you seem a little on edge about every post ive made.. guessing youre from another band in area A. sorry if i did get that info wrong though, chill out. just saying what i've heard.

[pokerface]

  capncrunk said:

you might be right about finals because that info came from a student but im pretty sure about prelims because my band director told us. you seem a little on edge about every post ive made.. guessing youre from another band in area A. sorry if i did get that info wrong though, chill out. just saying what i've heard.

 

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Some people just don't care enough or don't know how to use tact in their responses. I think they're from Keller in case you were wondering.

[DEH20]

  pokerface said:

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Some people just don't care enough or don't know how to use tact in their responses. I think they're from Keller in case you were wondering.

 

Sorry....i just like dealing with facts. Didn't mean to offend.

[pokerface]

It's all good, was just trying to play nice. i'm definitely the same way for the most part. People definitely need to learn to get legit info before they post things of that nature, though.

[southtxbones]

you want to talk about inconsistent results from uil judges?

 

A school I tech at, which is not to be named, competed at the Area G marching contest their ranks were somewhere along the lines of 3rd, 9th,7th?, 13th and....31st.

 

One judge should not have that much power.

 

The band did not make finals, and if that one judge would of at least a 25 they would've been in.

[titancoaster]

^yes but one judge can do the same in a BOA competition

When Connally went to BOA Arlington with Ourspace.com (the show we went to Grand Nats with) when we performed in prelims ALL of our rankings in every caption would have earned us a finals spot by a good margin except individual marching which lowered our score to 14th place. So even in the BOA competition one judge can make a huge difference

[itsstephenyo]

  titancoaster said:

^yes but one judge can do the same in a BOA competition

When Connally went to BOA Arlington with Ourspace.com (the show we went to Grand Nats with) when we performed in prelims ALL of our rankings in every caption would have earned us a finals spot by a good margin except individual marching which lowered our score to 14th place. So even in the BOA competition one judge can make a huge difference

 

Yes, but you're talking about a change from prelims to finals. Different performances and different settings. How many times have you seen a band score a 90 in prelims and then get like an 82 in finals? You can't compare a prelims score from two days prior to finalists bands.

 

The UIL inconsistencies stem from having three separate judges judging the same criteria. BOA doesn't have that, except for the Music GE portion. Each judge has a particular thing to judge. Individual marching, playing, whatever. But the point is, the judges' sheets don't really overlap very much.

[TRUMPet]

  Quote

The UIL inconsistencies stem from having three separate judges judging the same criteria.

i think that ^ is the problem. I dont think judges know exactly what the criteria is. UIL is supposed to be more objective but since the judges interpret the rules in their own way.... we get stuff like this

 

Bell HS, Hurst 3 2 10 5 1

Duncanville HS, Duncanville 4 10 1 6 6

 

and out of the ten bands only 2 had more than two judges agree on the score (for three bands none of the judges agreed, BEll,copell and cp)

[Fata1]

  itsstephenyo said:

The UIL inconsistencies stem from having three separate judges judging the same criteria. BOA doesn't have that, except for the Music GE portion. Each judge has a particular thing to judge. Individual marching, playing, whatever. But the point is, the judges' sheets don't really overlap very much.

That pretty much sums it up. As far as I'm concerned, the BOA adjudication process is far more defined than the UIL process and, as a result, far more fair. With BOA, when a band is ranked high in every category except for individual marching, they know that they need to work on individual marching. On the other hand, with UIL, when one judge ranks a band first in marching and ninth in marching, the band has no idea what happened.