No GE in UIL Adjudications Procedures

[king_leonides]

I re-read the UIL Adjudication procedures today, just to be sure that I wasn't hallucinating, when I first read them. General Effect is not considered as part judging procedures. What is up with that? That's whack!

 

The adjudication rules are outlined here:

 

http://www.uiltexas.org/music/marching-inf...ement-procedure

 

Marching and music are the only 2 categories that are to be evaluated - not GE. Why is that? That makes absolutely no sense. In theory, under this system, you could play "Mary Had A Little Lamb", march around in a big square for 9 minutes, and have perfect score - and make Finals. Ridiculous.

 

And technically, if you look at the actual comment sheet, color guard is not part of the scoring system at all! Why is that? I guess you could show up to a contest without a color guard, and still win....

 

Why doesn't the UIL use the BOA/DCI/DCA scoring system? Why isn't GE included? Is the leadership of UIL aware of this omission? Do they even care? Or are they just doing things this way, because "this is the way we've always done things?"

 

And more to the point: has this hurt the ability of Texas bands to compete at BOA? If GE is not part of the UIL procedures, then what do you do, if you run a Texas band? Do you design a bland show, since GE is not part of the UIL tabulations? Or do you design a show with plenty of GE, so you can compete in BOA? (I know, several Texas bands have competed well, and even won, BOA Nationals. That still does not mean that Texas bands are at a disadvantage, because of this absurd disparity, in the scoring rules.)

 

Of course, there's plenty of other UIL rules that put Texas bands at a disadvantage, when competing nationally....such as the 8-hour a week rule.....don't get me started on that one....

[alinktothepresent]

I'm extremely outraged, but I don't have enough time to write about how disgusted I am.

[king_leonides]

Here is a list of the state/region marching band associations, that use general effect, in their adjudication procedures:

 

Michigan Competing Band Association

Mid-States Band Association (Serves Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky)

Florida Marching Band Coalition

Tennessee Marching Band Championships

Ohio Music Educators Association

Western Band Association (California)

Kentucky Music Educators Association

 

And, of course, the Indiana Association uses it as well. Their state and regional competitions are preparation for BOA nationals, of course.

 

In fact, many of the independent contests in Texas (not part of UIL) use GE as well. I know it is used at Lone State Preview, for example.

 

So why is the UIL so far behind the times? What is their rationale or excuse for this? It simply makes no sense.

[Mellophone77]

While UIL may not have GE judges, GE is technically apart of the rubrics.

 

Music:

- Brass/Woodwind/Percussion: Effective Use

- Ensemble: Suitablility of Music

 

Visual:

- Execution of Marching Fundementals: Other Body Movements

- Drill: Compatablility of Marching Style with drill, Difficulty of Drill, Continuity and Flow

- Integration of Marching Components: Visual Reinforcement of Music, Effective Use of Auxiliary Units, Appearance of Uniforms

 

While it may not be worth as much, its still on the rubric.

 

And btw, the example of "you could play "Mary Had A Little Lamb", march around in a big square for 9 minutes, and have perfect score - and make Finals" is pretty much the common complaint against UIL but it really isn't true.

[Anthony V]

UIL has and will probably always be based simply on execution. The reason behind this is the mission of the program. Not everyone is going to have as good or hard a show at one another. We are all on different levels, but that shouldn't close doors and limit achievement just because of the experience of the band. How good a band is will be evident in whatever they might be doing, regardless of difficulty.

On the flip-side, you can't just sign up for UIL state like you can BOA Grand Nationals or USSBA nationals. You have to earn your way there, and that in itself is a reward. Personally, I enjoyed making UIL state rather than competing in BOA San Antonio finals-- of course there's always room for other opinion.

[king_leonides]

  Mellophone77 said:

Music:

- Brass/Woodwind/Percussion: Effective Use

- Ensemble: Suitablility of Music

 

Visual:

- Execution of Marching Fundementals: Other Body Movements

- Drill: Compatablility of Marching Style with drill, Difficulty of Drill, Continuity and Flow

- Integration of Marching Components: Visual Reinforcement of Music, Effective Use of Auxiliary Units, Appearance of Uniforms

 

Maybe a portion of the rubrics have some GE components in them. But I would really prefer to see these broken out into a separate category. I really would like to see 40 points reserved for this, just like the other scoring systems around the country, at both the band and drum corps level.

 

There's nothing in the existing rubrics about aesthetics, creativity, or level of emotional/intellectual impact. None whatsoever.

 

p.s., if you've never read the rubrics that UIL has, they are available here:

 

http://www.uiltexas.org/files/music/region...descriptor.pdf

Ironically, many of the best shows in Texas have high levels of GE - but I strongly suspect this is because of the BOA system.

Edited September 26, 2010 by king_leonides

[king_leonides]

Seriously....If you are a band director in this state, why even concern yourself with GE, unless you intend to compete in BOA? If you are just going to compete in UIL, why bother?

 

Why go out and spend a fortune on a show designed by Key Poulan or Mark Higgenbotham or Richard Saucedo or Doug Thrower? Why not just pay for a simple show, that your band can march and play cleanly, even if it lacks GE? It doesn't have to be a creative masterpiece, under the UIL rubrics.

Edited September 26, 2010 by king_leonides

[Mellophone77]

The stuff I listed off was off of the judge's rubrics at Area/State, just so you know. So technically I looked at a rubric but not the same rubric you looked at

 

To be honest, I don't really agree. I mean, GE should be taken into consideration but maybe not so much as 40 pts. To me GE stems from music exececution and drill design/execution. Should the band who was given a creative show and performed decently place higher then the band who got the less creative show and performed it better?

 

Also, I don't think Texas should morph to be like other contests. UIL is always so interesting since the results aren't quite what you would expect to be Besides, with the every other year state rule bands can shift foucs on BOA and UIL. Not many bands have the funds/fundraising ability to go to a lot of out of state BOA competitions every year.

 

Hopefully this makes sense and I'm not just ranting or something

 

Do the bands who do well in UIL not do well in BOA? "Boring" shows aren't winning or advancing so much. I don't think there was a 5A show last year that made state that completely lacked GE. And you're implying that the bands with more money should do better...

Edited September 26, 2010 by Mellophone77

[king_leonides]

  Mellophone77 said:

The stuff I listed off was off of the judge's rubrics at Area/State, just so you know. So technically I looked at a rubric but not the same rubric you looked at

 

Well, that's another point. Why on earth would they use different rubrics for different levels? Why change the judging sheets at all, for the district/area/state rounds? That makes no sense whatsoever! I understand why they may have different advancement rules for each level, since they can't squeeze 50 bands into the Alamodome on one day, but why change the rubrics?

 

The district competitions are typically the week before the area competitions. Can the band directors change the shows around, in less than a week, to change from the region rubrics to the area rubrics? Nope. So why change the rubrics?

 

Again, their entire judging process is messed up.

[hateher]

UIL rewards the excellence, and I think that is awesome!

 

Yes! GE is important, however I think we will all agree that as your achievement of music and visual go up.....so does your GE score. So it could be argued that bands that have to focus on UIL rubrics (based on execution/achievement) are actually setting themselves up for success when they are being judged by any different rubric.

 

Also, I think the Texas bands who do extremely well at UIL contests will do extremely well at ANY contest. Good is good....no matter how you want to judge it.

Edited September 26, 2010 by hateher

[Mellophone77]

As for the two rubrics, one determines a rating (Region) while one ranks (Area/State). Why should a band not get a superior rating because of their show design? If a band can play and marching what they are given at a "superior" level (regardless of how "interesting" it is) they should get a 1. Once they are being compared to other bands, GE should be taken into consideration.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Mellophone77

[king_leonides]

Sorry, I really think they should use the same scoring system and rubrics at all contests, and at all levels. Why? Because unless they do that, there is no way for them to establish relativity. This is another gripe that I have about the UIL and adjudication system - I could go on like this all night!

 

Seriously, how many bands in Texas earn 1's at the district level? How do you know after the district contests, how you stand versus the other bands in other areas? You can't.

 

Maybe the UIL should keep the 1-2-3-4-5 system, but still force their judging to put down a raw score on the 100 scale, even at the district level. Then at least the band directors will have some idea how their bands performed vis-a-vis the other programs in the state. And if they do this, then the judges will have to back up what they write on the sheets, with what they write on the tapes.

[Anthony V]

  king_leonides said:

Sorry, I really think they should use the same scoring system and rubrics at all contests, and at all levels. Why? Because unless they do that, there is no way for them to establish relativity. This is another gripe that I have about the UIL and adjudication system - I could go on like this all night!

 

Seriously, how many bands in Texas earn 1's at the district level? How do you know after the district contests, how you stand versus the other bands in other areas? You can't.

 

Maybe the UIL should keep the 1-2-3-4-5 system, but still force their judging to put down a raw score on the 100 scale, even at the district level. Then at least the band directors will have some idea how their bands performed vis-a-vis the other programs in the state. And if they do this, then the judges will have to back up what they write on the sheets, with what they write on the tapes.

 

 

Again, with the success factor, the region contest is more driven towards separating the "goats from the sheep" if you will. It's just to see if you're on the right track. Once you get past region level, Area level preps you for state-hood (if you make it). In addition, the allotted time between region and area is extremely minimal; Any amount of excessive ranking would be unnecessary. When you put all these rankings out there, the focus turns from excellence to "being better than THEM", if you understand what I mean. Not to say competition is a bad thing, but that it, like everything, must be taken in proportion to the activity. Marching band is about excellence. Drum Corps is about perfection.

Just being nitpicky, but UIL marching band doesn't hold district level competitions. Too costly and tedious.

[takigan]

  king_leonides said:

Here is a list of the state/region marching band associations, that use general effect, in their adjudication procedures:

 

Michigan Competing Band Association

Mid-States Band Association (Serves Ohio, Indiana, and Kentucky)

Florida Marching Band Coalition

Tennessee Marching Band Championships

Ohio Music Educators Association

Western Band Association (California)

Kentucky Music Educators Association

 

And, of course, the Indiana Association uses it as well. Their state and regional competitions are preparation for BOA nationals, of course.

 

In fact, many of the independent contests in Texas (not part of UIL) use GE as well. I know it is used at Lone State Preview, for example.

 

So why is the UIL so far behind the times? What is their rationale or excuse for this? It simply makes no sense.

 

Perhaps UIL isn't "behind the times". Maybe the rest of the country's systems have disintegrated into something that's not worth modeling. When you look at concert band competitions and standards, UIL was and still is the model that everyone else follows. I haven't done enough research into other states' contests to determine their rationale for creating their judging standards for marching bands, but I can guarantee you they were at least somewhat inspired by DCI. But really I think the DCI judging system is part of the reason the corps have deteriorated into its current lackluster level of musicality.

 

UIL is also about music education achieved through pursuit of competition. BOA is about pageantry and experiences....it's more about fun and games than real "meat and potatoes" learning. Why should UIL judge the creativity behind a show's design? That aspect has absolutely nothing to do at all with what these high school students have learned in an academic environment. That would be acknowledging the achievement of designers; full grown adults who are not students at that school. For UIL, everything ties into the school. At competitions they announce the names of the principal and superintendent. BOA separates the band program from the school...this fact is most obvious in the way the announcer announces the band. In UIL the school name and the word "High School" are linked together [The Westfield High School Marching Band].....in BOA the announcer hangs on the name of the school for a moment, then blurts out "HighSchoolMarchingBand" (It's the L.D. Bell........HighSchoolMarchingBand!). With BOA you're watching a High-School-Marching-Band that wears the name of an organization. At a UIL contest you are watching a marching band that belongs to a particular school.....and the school is what gets recognized. BOA values competition for sake of experiences, UIL values competition for the sake of learning.

 

What would reformation for the judging system mean for the many military marching bands in Texas? Would they still be able to be competitive under your new standards? (they already have trouble as it is...would your system help them or hurt them?) I could go on a completely different tangent about the attitude and contempt that contemporary (heh...) band directors have for the military style and how its somehow inferior to corps style (it's not). UIL has a duty to accomodate ALL band programs in Texas, regardless of their philosophy towards the activity.

 

I don't like UIL's system as much as the next person. But I don't think their problem lies in their failure to separate captions...You can still have an insightful judging perspective by just having "Music" and "Marching" generic captions (though I think the term "Marching" should be changed to "Visual", though I know they have specific reasons for not calling it that). I think the problems come from their ordinal format, lesser number of judges, their insistence on not hiring specialist judges and instead just having generic band instructors judge both captions at various points of the contest (some of these judges, although notorious in name, don't really know anything about the discrete idiosyncrasies of marching band and gained their reputation through their successes with a high quality HS varsity or collegiate wind ensemble....concert band directors, if you will).

 

I think GE judging trends have caused us to judge ourselves into a corner. When competition success is dependent on being creative, I think it encourages forced creativity. You also, for the sake of fairness, have to start defining what is "creative". This creates very contrived expectations from judges which in turn has the show designers creating a very contrived product in response....this predicament is plaguing marching band and drum corps alike. We're losing our musical perspective, but again....that's a whole other topic.

[Xenon]

  takigan said:

Perhaps UIL isn't "behind the times". Maybe the rest of the country's systems have disintegrated into something that's not worth modeling. When you look at concert band competitions and standards, UIL was and still is the model that everyone else follows. I haven't done enough research into other states' contests to determine their rationale for creating their judging standards for marching bands, but I can guarantee you they were at least somewhat inspired by DCI. But really I think the DCI judging system is part of the reason the corps have deteriorated into its current lackluster level of musicality.

 

UIL is also about music education achieved through pursuit of competition. BOA is about pageantry and experiences....it's more about fun and games than real "meat and potatoes" learning. Why should UIL judge the creativity behind a show's design? That aspect has absolutely nothing to do at all with what these high school students have learned in an academic environment. That would be acknowledging the achievement of designers; full grown adults who are not students at that school. For UIL, everything ties into the school. At competitions they announce the names of the principal and superintendent. BOA separates the band program from the school...this fact is most obvious in the way the announcer announces the band. In UIL the school name and the word "High School" are linked together [The Westfield High School Marching Band].....in BOA the announcer hangs on the name of the school for a moment, then blurts out "HighSchoolMarchingBand" (It's the L.D. Bell........HighSchoolMarchingBand!). With BOA you're watching a High-School-Marching-Band that wears the name of an organization. At a UIL contest you are watching a marching band that belongs to a particular school.....and the school is what gets recognized. BOA values competition for sake of experiences, UIL values competition for the sake of learning.

 

What would reformation for the judging system mean for the many military marching bands in Texas? Would they still be able to be competitive under your new standards? (they already have trouble as it is...would your system help them or hurt them?) I could go on a completely different tangent about the attitude and contempt that contemporary (heh...) band directors have for the military style and how its somehow inferior to corps style (it's not). UIL has a duty to accomodate ALL band programs in Texas, regardless of their philosophy towards the activity.

 

I don't like UIL's system as much as the next person. But I don't think their problem lies in their failure to separate captions...You can still have an insightful judging perspective by just having "Music" and "Marching" generic captions (though I think the term "Marching" should be changed to "Visual", though I know they have specific reasons for not calling it that). I think the problems come from their ordinal format, lesser number of judges, their insistence on not hiring specialist judges and instead just having generic band instructors judge both captions at various points of the contest (some of these judges, although notorious in name, don't really know anything about the discrete idiosyncrasies of marching band and gained their reputation through their successes with a high quality HS varsity or collegiate wind ensemble....concert band directors, if you will).

 

I think GE judging trends have caused us to judge ourselves into a corner. When competition success is dependent on being creative, I think it encourages forced creativity. You also, for the sake of fairness, have to start defining what is "creative". This creates very contrived expectations from judges which in turn has the show designers creating a very contrived product in response....this predicament is plaguing marching band and drum corps alike. We're losing our musical perspective, but again....that's a whole other topic.

 

As always, an absolutely brilliantly thought out reply.

 

Everyone here has touched on nearly all the big reasons why UIL is the way that it is.

 

As a quick recap:

 

- UIL is first and foremost an organization that strives to push education and through education, excellence; no matter what the form.

 

- The system MUST NOT discriminate based on aesthetic preferences. Corps, Military, Show, and others are all styles and none necessarily inhibit education.

 

- Because UIL is focused on education, judging is based purely on the efforts of those who are being educated. In this mindset, judging should absolutely not deeply consider design elements (the WHAT portions of GE) which are completely outside of the performer's control and often times better designs coming with significantly higher costs which most schools cannot afford. There are successful 5A schools that spend $20,000 or less on the design (and props) of their show each year while there are others that spend over $100,000 year after year. And that doesn't even start getting into the A, AA, AAA bands where even spending $2,000 on a music rights would be $100 per performer!

 

- The performance parts (the HOW portions) of GE actually are included in the UIL judging rubrics as they actually effect performance, themselves.

 

- Difficulty actually is taken into account on all levels including Region.

 

- UIL Region Marching Contest is all about performing against a set level of excellence. Not about competing with other bands, but with yourselves. Striving to do better for you without having to push somebody else down. This has been a core tenant of all music adjudication in Texas for many decades.

 

- UIL Area and State Marching contests are only a relatively recent (started in the 1980's) development and as such have been in a constant mode of refinement to try and find the balance between competition and education. There have been many pushes recently to just completely kill off the Area and State levels because many directors feel they focus too much on competition and aren't set up fairly for non-corps styles.

 

- UIL's Area and State judging and scoring procedures are both newer and more innovative (note that innovation is not always in the right direction) than any of the other existing adjudication/scoring systems used throughout the rest of the country. It has even been proposed a few times by top members of the DCI board that they change to use the UIL's ordinal system as it has been mathematically shown to remove the ability of judges to accidentally (or purposefully) over/under weight their caption.

 

 

I have said it many times and will say it again. For the goals set forth by the UIL's constitution (global UIL, not just bands), the UIL has made a system that has been proven to be one of the most successful (the most on a large scale) at advancing the strength of music education not only in Texas but across the entire nation and even inspiring methods in many places across the world.

 

Is the system perfect? Absolutely not; not by any means at all; I have many huge issues with how the UIL does some things. But, the fact that it is always being analyzed and changed (even if at bureaucratic paces) to try to be better is a testament to the goals.

 

 

 

 

And King Leonidas is right, the 8-hour rule is a completely different discussion, but I'd like to briefly (more brief than above, I promise) touch on that as well.

 

There are actually two different 8-hour rules. First is the TEA 8-hour rule which is set down by State Law and applies to ALL organizations within all TX schools. Second is the UIL Marching 8-hour rule which is merely an extension upon the TEA 8-hour rule.

 

The TEA 8-hour rule restricts practice time to 8 hours within the school week (start of school on Monday to end of school on Friday) but allows anything you want outside of that. The UIL 8-hour rule expands the restricted time period to include the entire calendar week.

 

I'm not going to go into any of the reasons and complaints surrounding this, I just wanted to state this one thing... It is absolutely certain that this additional restriction has been a key driving force in creating more efficient teaching methods. The fact that TX bands can not only be competitive at, but even win BOA Grand Nationals (where bands may and do practice many many more hours and all Saturday long) is a testament to the efficiency of the teaching methods in TX.

[king_leonides]

I once watched a band win a Superior rating at a region contest with a show consisting of Jingle Bells and Take Me Out to the Ball Game. No, I am not exaggerating. It came from a prestigious program, from an elite suburban school district, with a huge budget and tons of resources. Honestly, if I were judging that show, I would have given them a 3 or 4, and told the band director to take a hike. If I were a student in that program, I would have been offended at the mere thought of performing that show. Imagine if your a senior in that program, and you were told that instead of performing some magnum opus show for your last performance, you were going to do Jingle Bells. You've practiced your butt off for 7 years, and now, as a finale, all your band director is willing to trust you with is Take Me Out to the Ball Game. (That's when I started learning about the UIL, and some of the deficiencies in their competitive and judging methods.)

 

So creativity and innovation should not be part of the judging metrics? Then what are we teaching our youth in these programs? Are we teaching them not to be creative? Or are we simply teaching them to be androids, who are completely incapable of expressing their creative abilites? No wonder so many of the student musicians simply walk away from music, on the day they get their high school diploma. To them, it's nothing but practice, practice, practice, with no expression whatsoever. Maybe after 7 years of this, they can play excellent scales and chromatics, and can sight-read like a genius, but do they have any real appreciation for the music they are playing? And could any of them actually create or improvise anything themselves?

 

Sorry, this discussion has left me even more convinced that creativity and innovation need to be part of the judging package.

 

Now, regarding the military vs. corps marching style: there must be very, very few marching bands in this state that use military. I have been going to shows in Texas for years now, and I haven't seen it used once. (When I was learning to march, it was still called "showband" style, but hey, that was before the invention of cell phones. Literally.) I would like to see greater variations in the marching styles, but I have to be realistic and pragmatic. Drum corps style offers far less exposure to individual performance errors. There's much less possibility for alignment, phasing and carriage mistakes. It is simply easier for young marchers to learn. (I should know, because I have marched both styles, and drum corps style was far simpler.) Most directors today are going to stick with drum corps style, even if the rules don't give it an implicit advantage. Most bands in Texas today even use the low mark-time, which is the easiest form of marching that I know of.

Edited September 26, 2010 by king_leonides

[buzz]

You need to realize that UIL judges on what the students put on... GE is created in the minds of the director, and then the students perform. By including GE into the UIL rubrics, we'd start judging the band directors, not the students and their performance.

On another note, UIL Region is probably the fairest contest around. Bands don't have any competition with each other, and there are no scores given out. I live in Austin, and the bands here don't have the same amount of funds that Marcus and LD Bell have. Bowie is outstanding because of the quality of marching the put on and the musical ability (James Bowie 2008, anyone?). Furthermore, we have Akins (an outstanding visual band) and Dripping Springs, whose GE is quite high, but I personally saw their finals performance, and it was perfect, so I doubt GE was a factor.

UIL has an odd judging system, but it is fair. At the end of the day, 5 judges have an equal say on who was the best and who was the worst.

 

  king_leonides said:

I once watched a band win a Superior rating at a region contest with a show consisting of Jingle Bells and Take Me Out to the Ball Game. No, I am not exaggerating. It came from a prestigious program, from an elite suburban school district, with a huge budget and tons of resources. Honestly, if I were judging that show, I would have given them a 3 or 4, and told the band director to take a hike. If I were a student in that program, I would have been offended at the mere thought of performing that show. Imagine if your a senior in that program, and you were told that instead of performing some magnum opus show for your last performance, you were going to do Jingle Bells. You've practiced your butt off for 7 years, and now, as a finale, all your band director is willing to trust you with is Take Me Out to the Ball Game. (That's when I started learning about the UIL, and some of the deficiencies in their competitive and judging methods.)

 

So creativity and innovation should not be part of the judging metrics? Then what are we teaching our youth in these programs? Are we teaching them not to be creative? Or are we simply teaching them to be androids, who are completely incapable of expressing their creative abilitites? No wonder so many of the student musicians simply walk away from music, on the day they get their high school diploma. To them, it's nothing but practice, practice, practice, with no expression whatsoever. Maybe after 7 years of this, they can play excellent scales and chromatics, and can sight-read like a genius, but do they have any real appreciation for the music they are playing? And could any of them actually create or improvise anything themselves?

 

Sorry, this discussion has left me even more convinced that creativity and innovation need to be part of the judging package.

 

Now, regarding the military vs. corps marching style: there must be very, very few marching bands in this state that use military. I have been going to shows in Texas for years now, and I haven't seen it used once. (When I was learning to march, it was still called "showband" style, but hey, that was before the invention of cell phones. Literally.) I would like to see greater variations in the marching styles, but I have to be realistic and pragmatic. Drum corps style offers far less exposure to individual performance errors. There's much less possibility for alignment, phasing and carriage mistakes. It is simply easier for young marchers to learn. (I should know, because I have marched both styles, and drum corps style was far simpler.) Most directors today are going to stick with drum corps style, even if the rules don't give it an implicit advantage. Most bands in Texas today even use the low mark-time, which is the easiest form of marching that I know of.

[king_leonides]

GE is not simply created by the band director, or the music arranger, or the drill designer. It must be expressed by the performers on the field. The performers need to take the charts from the arranger, and the drill book from the designer, and convert those into a performance. If they have a creative show, and can express it with emotion, flair and dynamism, then you have general effect. If you lack either of these elements, then you don't. Then you end up with the Jingle Bells show. I've seen more than one show with great design, but poor interpretation by the band who marched it.

 

Look at what takes place on the athletics side at UIL. Do all the football, basketball, and soccer coaches design the same schemes for their players? Of course they don't. They create different offensive and defensive schemes, for their student athletes. The coaches have to create a scheme that their players can execute, and then the athletes have to execute it. And oftentimes, the most creative coaches are the ones who win. I've seen more than one game, where one coach simply out-coached the other, by creating a better scheme, and showing their student athletes how to execute it.

 

So no, by adding GE explicitly to the mix, we are not merely "judging the director." The judges really should judge the complete product on the field, because both the directors and students have to play their respective parts.

Edited September 26, 2010 by king_leonides

[longhornsax]

2008 5A UIL State Fianls

1. Marcus HS

2. L.D. Bell HS

3. Coppell HS

4. Cedar Park HS

5. James Bowie HS

6. Duncanville HS

7. Richland HS

8. Winston Churchill HS

9. Westlake HS

10. Hebron HS

 

2008 BOA San Antonio Finals

1. L.D. Bell HS

2. Marcus HS

3. Cedar Park HS

4. James Bowie HS

5. Winston Churchill HS

6. Stephen F. Austin HS

7. Berkner HS

8. Hebron HS

9. Keller HS

10. Friendswood HS

11. Westlake HS

 

Funny how many similarities there are between those lists, eh? They may have totally different rubrics for judging, but if it weren't for the discrepancies in the bands competing, these results would be strikingly similar. Truth is, you're gonna see great bands do well no matter what the rubric says. If the scoring put 80% emphasis on individual marching, you'd still see the same bands on these lists. why? because creativity breeds execution and vice versa. The UIL scoring sheet may not directly mention GE, but lets just admit it, what judge can honestly remain unaffected by originality?

 

There is so much more I would like to say here, but I should really stop procrastinating.

[mellopwn1]

This is an EXCELLENT point. Last year at a local contest I watched a band play a show with a fantastic repertoire (1812 Overture, Sleep, and Eine Kleine Nachtmusik) and had a decently difficult visual book. IT WAS THE MOST BORING THING I HAD EVER SEEN IN MY EXPERIENCE OF WATCHING MARCHING SHOWS. The music was mechanical and out of tune, but all the notes were correct. The body movements and step outs were lifeless "hokey pokey-esque" flailing of limbs, and did not communicate the expressive, graceful, or powerful intent that the designers had in mind AT ALL when the show was being written. It is all these reasons why this band did not make finals at the festival. This is testament to the fact that you can be given the opportunities for success by your directors and designers but then you simply don't put an ounce of feeling into it. It was mechanically correct in almost every way, it was just boring as heck (yes, they made 1812 boring...).

 

Also, I agree with Xenon that cost is a huge limiting factor. My friend took a class at Tanglewood this summer about the economics of band programs and it turns out that The Woodlands spends ~$800,000 in a year when they attend Grand Nationals (this is apparently the most in nation, $300,000 ahead of #2, Avon High School, who spends $500,000 a year). This is just excessive for anyone, especially a band that is not THE best. I don't even want to imagine what the band fees for The Woodlands must be!!! Mine are only like $300 a year....

 

UIL, in my opinion, should create a separate division for military bands. Why should they be made to compete against corps bands? They are two COMPLETELY different things. Each style has different ideals and paradigm. Military is marches and perfect visual, corps is...everything else. They aren't the same and, as such, they shouldn't be judged the same. The only one I know of that has ever made state finals is Kingwood back in the 90s, which goes to show that they really don't have much of an opportunity for success. They should have their own Area and State competitions that tailor to their specific needs. That's just me though.

 

 

  king_leonides said:

GE is not simply created by the band director, or the music arranger, or the drill designer. It must be expressed by the performers on the field. The performers need to take the charts from the arranger, and the drill book from the designer, and convert those into a performance. If they have a creative show, and can express it with emotion, flair and dynamism, then you have general effect. If you lack either of these elements, then you don't. Then you end up with the Jingle Bells show. I've seen more than one show with great design, but poor interpretation by the band who marched it.

 

Look at what takes place on the athletics side at UIL. Do all the football, basketball, and soccer coaches design the same schemes for their players? Of course they don't. They create different offensive and defensive schemes, for their student athletes. The coaches have to create a scheme that their players can execute, and then the athletes have to execute it. And oftentimes, the most creative coaches are the ones who win. I've seen more than one game, where one coach simply out-coached the other, by creating a better scheme, and showing their student athletes how to execute it.

 

So no, by adding GE explicitly to the mix, we are not merely "judging the director." The judges really should judge the complete product on the field, because both the directors and students have to play their respective parts.

[Xenon]

  King Leonides said:

GE is not simply created by the band director, or the music arranger, or the drill designer. It must be expressed by the performers on the field.

Exactly correct. The HOW portion of GE depends completely upon the performer.

 

  King Leonides said:

and can express it with emotion, flair and dynamism, then you have general effect.

That is EXACTLY the portion of GE that absolutely IS in the UIL judging criteria. These are key criteria of Performance.

 

  King Leonides said:

[... talk about the Jingle Bells and Take Me Out to the Ball Game ...]

Outside of a playoff show (sounds likely to be one from the details of the post), I have never seen a "prestigious program, from an elite suburban school district, with a huge budget and tons of resources" perform something like that. I have, however, seen a show from Sachse that included lots of familiar tunes like those in a very well designed, well executed, and well performed show. And I have also seen a certain 2x Reigning BOA Grand Nationals Champion perform a show that included The National Anthem, the ESPN Football Theme, the ESPN Classic Football Theme, and others and I loved it, and it was awesome.

 

  mellopwn1 said:

The music was mechanical and out of tune, but all the notes were correct. The body movements and step outs were lifeless "hokey pokey-esque" flailing of limbs, and did not communicate the expressive, graceful, or powerful intent that the designers had in mind AT ALL when the show was being written.

And a show like that would not do well at all at a UIL event as all of those things are included in the judging criteria.

 

  King Leonides said:

there must be very, very few marching bands in this state that use military.

There are many many many bands in Texas that march Military. They are mostly in East Texas. There was a 5A military band in the Dallas area until just a few years ago. There are even quite a few military bands at UIL State in the A-AAAA classifications and if they do their thing really well, then some of them even very deservingly make State Finals.

 

A great performing military band with all of the snaps and kicks and all the tiny itty bitty perfected things makes for a HUGE effect and it has absolutely nothing to do with creativity of design.

[Danpod]

After UIL State Finals, there is rarely a debate about the Finals placements, aside from the kids who felt like they were "screwed". There seem to be a few more head scratchers whenever you get to a BOA Finals performance.

[king_leonides]

  Xenon said:

Outside of a playoff show (sounds likely to be one from the details of the post), I have never seen a "prestigious program, from an elite suburban school district, with a huge budget and tons of resources" perform something like that.

 

No, it wasn't a playoff show. It was a UIL regional competition. It was 5A program, and there was no 5A state championship that year. It was an odd-numbered year. (I strongly suspect that the director of that program put together a simplistic show for that year. His outfit does not perform at BOA, or other contests that involve GE. His attitude seemed to be: With no area or state competition this year, why bother?)

 

Look, this is one of just a series of complaints I have against UIL. But this is the one that irritates me the most. I can undersdand the rationale for much of what I also don't like with UIL:

 

1) Holding the championships on a weekday. They apparently can't rent out a suitable facility on the weekend during football season. The probably could, but it would be extremely expensive. They would have to pay some athletic director not to hold football games in their own stadium on a Saturday. Plus the bands would not be able to march their own football games that weekend, which would be very unpopular.

2) Holding the champinships indoors. Accoustics in the Alamodome stink. We all know that. The echo effect in there is horrendous, especially for percussion. (They are even worse than in Lucas Oil Stadium, which is terrible. That place is practically an echo chamber.) But they want to hold their championship indoors, because they want to avoid rain-outs. So back to the "San Antonio Echo Chamber" we go.....

3) Holding the 4A/5A championships in alternating years. Again, it is grossly unfair to the marching band students, that they cannot compete for a state title every year. Imagine if this rule was in place in football? Dear God, there would be riots in this state! But because of economics, UIL can't afford to stage this event for all 5 classifications every year.

 

The previous 3 complaints can all be chalked up to economic or scheduling issues. If those can't be fixed, then we just have to live with it.

 

But the judging rubrics is something that can be fixed. That is entirely under the control of the UIL, and there is no economic justification for that situation. I do suspect that the situation will be rectified over time, however. I think that UIL will eventually move to the national standards that BOA/DCI employ. I just hope that it happens before my grandchildren are ready to march....in the year 2035 or so!

Edited September 26, 2010 by king_leonides

[takigan]

  mellopwn1 said:

Also, I agree with Xenon that cost is a huge limiting factor. My friend took a class at Tanglewood this summer about the economics of band programs and it turns out that The Woodlands spends ~$800,000 in a year when they attend Grand Nationals (this is apparently the most in nation, $300,000 ahead of #2, Avon High School, who spends $500,000 a year). This is just excessive for anyone, especially a band that is not THE best. I don't even want to imagine what the band fees for The Woodlands must be!!! Mine are only like $300 a year....

 

Here are the Woodlands's band dues for this year (I remember they were something like $1200 for Grand Nats last year)

http://www.twhsband.org/2010_BandFees.shtml

 

I don't really know what Avon's are, but I know a huge amount of their fundraising comes from booster dues and parent-run fundraisers.

 

I don't have the enrollment numbers for the Woodlands but it's probably somewhere in the 300 range. So we're talking a $350,000 pull just from the students. I somehow don't think the fundraising efforts of the parent program could make up for that other $450,000, but when you consider the fact that the Woodlands is THE most financially affluent city in the state of Texas with a population of 50,000+ and the property taxes and housing costs in this area are ginormous, and combine that with the positive image band programs have in Texas, especially a band bearing the success that the Woodlands enjoys, you can bet the amount of money the school district pulls in is considerable and the cut that the band receives from that massive pool of money is also considerable. But I have built theoretical band budgets before and something tells me this is the Gross Cost for EVERYTHING the program had budgeted for the year; meaning paying the band directors, capital outlay costs (this would scheduled costs like repairing and replacing old instruments/equipment), possibly the costs of the band's Spring Trip, and of course the yearly operating expenses for the marching band show design, all part-time instructors, travel and hotel expenses for all contest including Nationals, contest fees, the supply budget (paper, ink, postage, books, sheet music) etc.

 

$800,000.....if it's not the gross costs, it must at least include the costs of a major spring trip or something (maybe a bond infusion that included a major purchase like new uniforms or an inventory overhaul). Man, that's a lot of money for 1 year's worth of expenses!

[mellopwn1]

Holy moley! So it's true? That's a LOT of money. haha. I think I might have to make the trip from Dallas down to their BOA just to see what the area looks like. I thought it was just your average suburb! I never understood why everyone always calls them snobs (which they aren't! they're really sweet!) until now...haha Thanks for the information though!

 

  takigan said:

Here are the Woodlands's band dues for this year (I remember they were something like $1200 for Grand Nats last year)

http://www.twhsband.org/2010_BandFees.shtml

 

I don't really know what Avon's are, but I know a huge amount of their fundraising comes from booster dues and parent-run fundraisers.

 

I don't have the enrollment numbers for the Woodlands but it's probably somewhere in the 300 range. So we're talking a $350,000 pull just from the students. I somehow don't think the fundraising efforts of the parent program could make up for that other $450,000, but when you consider the fact that the Woodlands is THE most financially affluent city in the state of Texas with a population of 50,000+ and the property taxes and housing costs in this area are ginormous, and combine that with the positive image band programs have in Texas, especially a band bearing the success that the Woodlands enjoys, you can bet the amount of money the school district pulls in is considerable and the cut that the band receives from that massive pool of money is also considerable. But I have built theoretical band budgets before and something tells me this is the Gross Cost for EVERYTHING the program had budgeted for the year; meaning paying the band directors, capital outlay costs (this would scheduled costs like repairing and replacing old instruments/equipment), possibly the costs of the band's Spring Trip, and of course the yearly operating expenses for the marching band show design, all part-time instructors, travel and hotel expenses for all contest including Nationals, contest fees, the supply budget (paper, ink, postage, books, sheet music) etc.

 

$800,000.....if it's not the gross costs, it must at least include the costs of a major spring trip or something (maybe a bond infusion that included a major purchase like new uniforms or an inventory overhaul). Man, that's a lot of money for 1 year's worth of expenses!