I can't figure this out.

[fitecho063]

My wife and I have followed DCI for many years. This is our second year attending local competitions and I cannot remember a single competition that I walk away from without scratching my head and saying WT? were they thinking there. I have read a bunch of posts on here and this seems to be a reasonably fair minded and informed. So please help me. I was at the BOA Arlngton and I was extremely confused with some of the results. Please understand this, I am not questioning nor complaining about them. I have raised a figure skater and have dealt with the reality of judges on several levels of competition. That being said, I could usually figure out what they were looking for. I am not trying to offend anyone, I just want tunderstand the scoring and interpretatin and these are the only examples I have so if I mention your school, I am not poking, just telling you what I observed.

 

I cannot figure out what was so great about LD Bells show. It was good but I felt that they use too much technology and cheap emotional tricks. As a veteran I was almost offended by the use of the grave markers, it is a VERY powerful visual for so many people.

 

What is the deal with Markus and the massive props? Their show was pretty much performed on half of the field because the props covered the other half. I just get tired of the melodrama they bring every year. It is almost too much.

 

Hebron is a good band and I like their style mostly. Their show was so predictable I could see the formations before they happened and the props added nothing. They did not sound as good as last year but they were good.

 

Richland, what the heck was that? The playground equipment, the sound effects, the not so conservative guard uniforms and the adult entertainment style dance moves? The show made zero sense to me.

 

Forgive me if I am stepping on toes. I am just very confused. The use of props has become a distraction from the performance. After Marcus' show last year it looks like everybody is getting into the act. From giant rolling candelabras to stars stuck in the ground to synthesized elevated marimbas. All we need now is pyro and lasers. Sorry , a little off topic.

 

Is the judging simply reputation and squeeze in a few other to make it look honest? Marcus performed an unfinished show that without the props would not have incorporated half of the field. LD Bell used so much sound effect there were portions I could not hear the band if they were even playing. Has the emphasis gone from marching and playing to sets and choreography or is there a tasteful way to combine it. Maybe I am off base and I guess that is what I am asking you all to hel me with. I need a little sanity.

[TxRaider13]

I agree, I hate props. Let the music, and guard paint the picture or tell the story, get rid of the big props that do nothing, are just there to destract. Sorry but I believe props have no place in marching band, Let me say again, LET THE MUSIC AND GUARD TELL THE STORY OR PAINT THE PICTURE, not some over size star, or some over sized flag. The electronics, I don't mind a synthasizor(or however it's spelled) but recorded voices or bomb sounds, things of that nature have no place. Some of the best shows I have ever seen didn't use any props, Reagan 03, Duncanville every year, Bell 2000, Forney 09, Poteet 97,01 Richland 03, Roma 03, North Mesquite 10. At the other end, some of the bad shows had mega props and did nothing to help. Marching half a field because of huge props is stupid. If a band likes visuals than do visuals without the props, I have no problem with Crown Style visuals or what Reagan did in 03, Laying on the field is cool if it fits, but running behind a prop and playing peek-a-boo does nothing for me. I hate park and bark spots in shows, and some of these schools all they do is stop and blow your ears off, then march while drums are playing. I like BOA, but the props have got to go, or some regulation needs to come into play aside from the current one.

 

So for the record, I HATE PROPS, but I enjoy BOA shows, mainly the ones without the props

[GuitarJoe]

A lot of people will agree with your post, and a lot of people will disagree. Most of the hardcore DCI and 'seasoned' crowd are against what the marching arts are evolving into. I personally love how programs are advancing and creating new ways to perform.

 

You are going to see a lot of outside the box productions at BOA competitions. Big props, outrageous guard outfits, pit sound effects, ect. The more UIL minded programs are the ones that are going to put out the more straight forward 'play and march' type shows. It can be quite difficult to design a show that can cater and excel in both. Often times you will see a band finish well at a BOA contest and poorly at a UIL one, all depending on how their show is designed. Recently LD Bell and Marcus have been able to do very well at balancing their shows for both BOA/UIL, winning both UIL State and various BOA contests within the same year. Other programs such as Richland, Haltom, Reagan, Churchill, The Woodlands, ect have also done well at both.

 

The Arlington regional was earlier again this year and probably the first competition for almost all of these schools. I'd be surprised if any of the finalist bands had their completed shows on the field, which may be why some were harder to understand.

 

 

I don't know if this answers any of your questions, but I thought I'd post something. Please forgive any misspellings or syntax errors. Just got home from work and I'm exhausted.

Edited October 4, 2010 by GuitarJoe

[SilverSquare]

  fitecho063 said:

My wife and I have followed DCI for many years. This is our second year attending local competitions and I cannot remember a single competition that I walk away from without scratching my head and saying WT? were they thinking there. I have read a bunch of posts on here and this seems to be a reasonably fair minded and informed. So please help me. I was at the BOA Arlngton and I was extremely confused with some of the results. Please understand this, I am not questioning nor complaining about them. I have raised a figure skater and have dealt with the reality of judges on several levels of competition. That being said, I could usually figure out what they were looking for. I am not trying to offend anyone, I just want tunderstand the scoring and interpretatin and these are the only examples I have so if I mention your school, I am not poking, just telling you what I observed.

 

I cannot figure out what was so great about LD Bells show. It was good but I felt that they use too much technology and cheap emotional tricks. As a veteran I was almost offended by the use of the grave markers, it is a VERY powerful visual for so many people.

 

What is the deal with Markus and the massive props? Their show was pretty much performed on half of the field because the props covered the other half. I just get tired of the melodrama they bring every year. It is almost too much.

 

Hebron is a good band and I like their style mostly. Their show was so predictable I could see the formations before they happened and the props added nothing. They did not sound as good as last year but they were good.

 

Richland, what the heck was that? The playground equipment, the sound effects, the not so conservative guard uniforms and the adult entertainment style dance moves? The show made zero sense to me.

 

Forgive me if I am stepping on toes. I am just very confused. The use of props has become a distraction from the performance. After Marcus' show last year it looks like everybody is getting into the act. From giant rolling candelabras to stars stuck in the ground to synthesized elevated marimbas. All we need now is pyro and lasers. Sorry , a little off topic.

 

Is the judging simply reputation and squeeze in a few other to make it look honest? Marcus performed an unfinished show that without the props would not have incorporated half of the field. LD Bell used so much sound effect there were portions I could not hear the band if they were even playing. Has the emphasis gone from marching and playing to sets and choreography or is there a tasteful way to combine it. Maybe I am off base and I guess that is what I am asking you all to hel me with. I need a little sanity.

 

 

"LD Bell used so much sound effect there were portions I could not hear the band if they were even playing."

 

You must have been sitting fairly low...I was blasted out of my seat during prelims when I sat low but sat much higher at finals and could barely hear the sound effects.

[drummerdad]

  fitecho063 said:

My wife and I have followed DCI for many years. This is our second year attending local competitions and I cannot remember a single competition that I walk away from without scratching my head and saying WT? were they thinking there. I have read a bunch of posts on here and this seems to be a reasonably fair minded and informed. So please help me. I was at the BOA Arlngton and I was extremely confused with some of the results. Please understand this, I am not questioning nor complaining about them. I have raised a figure skater and have dealt with the reality of judges on several levels of competition. That being said, I could usually figure out what they were looking for. I am not trying to offend anyone, I just want tunderstand the scoring and interpretatin and these are the only examples I have so if I mention your school, I am not poking, just telling you what I observed.

 

I cannot figure out what was so great about LD Bells show. It was good but I felt that they use too much technology and cheap emotional tricks. As a veteran I was almost offended by the use of the grave markers, it is a VERY powerful visual for so many people.

 

What is the deal with Markus and the massive props? Their show was pretty much performed on half of the field because the props covered the other half. I just get tired of the melodrama they bring every year. It is almost too much.

 

Hebron is a good band and I like their style mostly. Their show was so predictable I could see the formations before they happened and the props added nothing. They did not sound as good as last year but they were good.

 

Richland, what the heck was that? The playground equipment, the sound effects, the not so conservative guard uniforms and the adult entertainment style dance moves? The show made zero sense to me.

 

Forgive me if I am stepping on toes. I am just very confused. The use of props has become a distraction from the performance. After Marcus' show last year it looks like everybody is getting into the act. From giant rolling candelabras to stars stuck in the ground to synthesized elevated marimbas. All we need now is pyro and lasers. Sorry , a little off topic.

 

Is the judging simply reputation and squeeze in a few other to make it look honest? Marcus performed an unfinished show that without the props would not have incorporated half of the field. LD Bell used so much sound effect there were portions I could not hear the band if they were even playing. Has the emphasis gone from marching and playing to sets and choreography or is there a tasteful way to combine it. Maybe I am off base and I guess that is what I am asking you all to hel me with. I need a little sanity.

 

Okay, at the risk of showing my age, let me say that I've had one kid go through a very successful and talented...and lets say more conventional style high school program; and now have one getting ready to graduate from a different and newer school (one you probably saw Saturday night) whose approach is along the lines of what you have expressed concerns about. I absolutely think both are fantastic in their own ways.

 

I will also say that I am a major follower and fan of DCI and go to multiple events each year.

 

That said, I can specifically declare that the kids I've seen in both styles of programs work equally hard, are equally talented and have equally ambitious goals toward success. So I am a fan because not only do I appreciate the musicians and directors and designers of the shows, but know how much work it takes to make them come together.

 

I believe that at the high school level, where unlike DCI (with its very small number of corps with very elite talent) it is flooded with hundreds of schools with tons of talent, and at some point some directors and designers decided that they had to do things differently to set themselves apart from what has been the conventional (yet somewhat evolving) approach to marching band/corp style shows. Shows like L D Bell, Richland, Marcus and many, many others (Carmel (Indiana), Avon (Indiana), Broken Arrow (Oklahoma) put on the field today transcend the music into telling a story, usually with an introduction, content, and a conclusion. The music carries the story line and many times the props, the drill and the guard help push the story adding more emotion and meaning. I like to think of watching a movie that uses a song I know in it and suddenly the music has more meaning to me. Or how if I've seen a movie or show I really like, that I want the music so I can relive what I experienced while watching the movie...the production added to the musical experience and vise versa.

 

I initially resisted this idea when first facing this phenomenon, but now that I've watched a program first hand work so hard to learn, execute and deliver the show, I have more appreciation for it. That said, when I watch a program like Mesquite Poteet, or Duncanville, and many others just go out there and march great and play great, I think it is fantastic.

Edited October 4, 2010 by drummerdad

[takigan]

I don't feel schools add props to gain some kind of special advantage at competitions. Some props will help the General Effect score if they serve some purpose in the show, but having "backdrops" doesn't grant you additional points on their own. If the backdrops compliment the colors of the flags and the guard uniform, you might get a tiny amount of points for visual GE, but nothing that's going to affect your score drastically. These props mainly only exist for the purpose of themselves. It gives the show more life to it, it gives it personality.

 

The importance of props to students is really hard to explain but let's try this; I've seen many schools' props sitting in their respective band halls during the post season after they've been used, and they've found themselves attaining many uses. Students put stickers on them, paint them, write all over them, they wrap christmas lights on them, they assign them nicknames and even name section leaders for the group of students who move/utilize them during the season ("Trees" section leader).

 

 

Georgetown HS using their airplane prop from 2008 as a stage for a band banquet.

 

The props add fun and excitement to a show, and also serve as an identity for that school during that season "Oh, Brazoswood? Yeah, they had those cool props that looked like rainclouds." That identity still holds with the band even after marching season has ended and the props are stored in the band hall, no longer having any use.

 

I don't think they're trying to impress anybody with cool props. They're just THERE.

[CPFrntEns]

As far as which show style is best, that all comes down to preference. Personally, I like more dci-style: few props, but you have body and other not strictly marching elements in the show as well. I like little effects here and there, but in my opinion the vast majority of the show should be playing and marching. But there are some who love the story-telling style and think the props add a ton to the show and there are some who would prefer if bands did just straight marching and playing, nothing else. It's all opinion.

 

As far as the judging, it all comes down to a little category called General Effect. I still don't know exactly how GE is judged, but it has to do with how the audience reacts to your show. Generally speaking, props add GE. Cool effects from the synth add GE. Body adds GE. Basically anything that makes you go "Oh wow, that was cool" gives you GE. The problems arise when one person says "Oh wow, that was cool" and another says "I don't get why that's cool." It's a fault many have with BOA judging. And GE is the largest category at BOA contests, so it plays a huge factor in who wins and loses.

 

If I were you, I wouldn't worry about it. It causes way to much stress to worry about the results and who got what because of why. Trust me. Just enjoy the shows for what they are. In the band world, especially for students, the sooner you figure this out, the more enjoyment you'll be able to get out of it.

[titancoaster]

GE is a rediculously hard to explain judging catagory. In essence the visual GE has little to do with the "ooo thats cool" effects but instead it has to do with having everything you do visually heighten the music. (IE; is you have fast music your drill should look fast, or a hit in the show should be a powerful form, so no scatter drill). The vis GE judge will also look at your ability to tell a story/portray a theme through the visual elements that match the music/ Music GE is more about having good quality music, whether its arraingments or custom music, and making it as interesting as possible and it is supposed to make somesort of cohesive story. The "ooooh" factor is involved with music GE, as you really want your music to impress the judge and keep him/her on their toes with excitement. Now this is not an end all answer to the waht is GE question but it is a simple answer that matchs similiarly to the BOA judging sheet/rule sheet. So you do not need props to score high in GE at all...but if they are used to amplify the story or are used to visually portray the music than the can help. I personally prefer having little to no props but there are shows I love that had props in them. (Marcus's Greek gods/godesses show to name one)

[fitecho063]

Thank you all for you input. What I have gatherd is that the GE score is completely subjective. It can make or break any performance. As I read through a bunch of other posts, it seems that UIL is taking steps to eliminate the "subjectiveness" of GE when it comes to State competition. I find that encouraging for the most part. I also find that those schools that have the grand, GE heavy, shows are against this. Surprised, not really. If you keep going to the well with the same approach and keep coming back with a full bucket, why change it, right? My, and completely mine, opinion is that there is a mix of all things that works when done well. I guess my frustration with the judging is that those school that do not have the larger, prop heavy shows got passed over at BOA. I understand the difference between BOA and other competitions. What works at BOA doesn't always work elsewhere, and vice versa. Looking at the results from The Woodlands, it seems that what works at one BOA doesn't work at another, see Vandergrift at Arlington and The Woodlands. Not that it's bad, it is just difficult to put my finger on what is good and what is not. I started this thread out of my frustration with the fact that most of the bands I saw and liked, didn't make the cut.

 

I know all the kids at all the schools work extremely hard and i will never dismiss their efforts. I admire every single person that steps onto the field. This is the best show going and I always get my money"s worth. As a person who has followed figure skating, I know that the system can and will be manipulated in order to succeed. When they switched to a points based on "tricks" we got a ton of "jumping machines" that won with big points. When the artistry was the determining factor, we got winners with less skill than others. When you find the balance of skill and artisty, it works. I feel that judges NEED some sort of benchmark to judge against, hense the technical scores, as well as a LIMITED influence on artistry and GE. If the show just doesn't work but has extreme difficulty should be punished for not working, as well as if a show works well but is not as difficult, it should be punished for lack of difficulty.

 

Again, the emphasis of one over the other is what I am against. I was looking for a concrete answer to what the judges want and I guess the only way to know is after the performance and the schools get their critiques. Wouldn't it be more productive and create better competition if this was known up front?

[whitewing09]

1.) I know to each their own, but I don't really understand the argument people make when they say that a band uses props to add points to there show? In the end the points they may get from these props are minimal. The show won't receive a higher placement because of their props, but because of their ability to play and march. Personally, when I watch a show I don't really take the props into much consideration, I watch the real visual stuff, the marching.

2.) I'm under the impression that GE is more than having "flashy" movements. Bands receive GE points for being more emotional with their music like Bell and Cedar Park, some bands like Marcus receive points for being more clean. I don't know if this makes sense, but UIL is more about execution while BOA focuses on performance. UIL values perfections, while BOA advocates perfection, but also values the actual performance. I remember a few years back (wow I feel old) people would complain about TWHS because their music was "overbearing," but maybe that "overbearing" sound translated into emotion and added to the actual performance rather than perfect execution in terms of balance. I'd like to also add that watching a band perform extremely difficult music or marching with impeccable execution may warrant extra GE points. Then there are so many other factors such as individual marching and music that could effect a bands score.

3.)To say that GE is completely subjective, seems a little rash. There is some method to the madness! Look at the top bands in UIL and BOA, they're usually the same bands especially Bell, Marcus, Cedar Park, and Bowie. They dominate both UIL and BOA. Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions exist everywhere in life.

[CPFrntEns]

  whitewing09 said:

1.) I know to each their own, but I don't really understand the argument people make when they say that a band uses props to add points to there show? In the end the points they may get from these props are minimal. The show won't receive a higher placement because of their props, but because of their ability to play and march. Personally, when I watch a show I don't really take the props into much consideration, I watch the real visual stuff, the marching.

2.) I'm under the impression that GE is more than having "flashy" movements. Bands receive GE points for being more emotional with their music like Bell and Cedar Park, some bands like Marcus receive points for being more clean. I don't know if this makes sense, but UIL is more about execution while BOA focuses on performance. UIL values perfections, while BOA advocates perfection, but also values the actual performance. I remember a few years back (wow I feel old) people would complain about TWHS because their music was "overbearing," but maybe that "overbearing" sound translated into emotion and added to the actual performance rather than perfect execution in terms of balance. I'd like to also add that watching a band perform extremely difficult music or marching with impeccable execution may warrant extra GE points. Then there are so many other factors such as individual marching and music that could effect a bands score.

3.)To say that GE is completely subjective, seems a little rash. There is some method to the madness! Look at the top bands in UIL and BOA, they're usually the same bands especially Bell, Marcus, Cedar Park, and Bowie. They dominate both UIL and BOA. Of course there are exceptions, but exceptions exist everywhere in life.

 

 

This is pretty true. You can get GE points from doing just about anything well. The other main point to bring up is that all judging is completely subjective. That's what judging is: someone's opinion on how good or bad something is. Of course, some opinions are absurd (who's gonna say a Little League T-ball team is better than the Yankees?), so there is a sort of standard for judging. But when you get a lot of bands peformaning vastly different shows and very high levels, there's often a discrepancy between the opinions of the judges and therefore the scores of the judges. People point to GE as the most subjective category, and in a way they're right, but all categories are subjective, so you can't fault the GE category for ruining results.

 

Ok, that even confused me. Point is, it comes down to the judge's opinion no matter what format you use.

[seekin4therapy]

  Quote

too much technology and cheap emotional tricks. As a veteran I was almost offended by the use of the grave markers, it is a VERY powerful visual for so many people.

 

I can understand the reasoning behind not liking too much technological sound effects in a marching show, but nowadays it's becoming more and more common in the high school marching field to see/hear effects like that. Like the people that have posted before me said, in BOA GE points can be attained many different ways, and using sound effects is one of those ways that when used properly is very effective. Personally I liked the helicopter and bomb sounds because the band doesn't play while those are happening, but it's my own personal taste and not everyone will agree with me.

 

As for the grave markers, I wouldn't go so far as to call them cheap emotional tricks. The show is about honoring troops and fallen hero's, and the point of the graves is to incite an emotional reaction in the audience because that is what's supposed to happen. If you're going to have a show about honoring troops and fallen hero's, it needs to be emotional, otherwise it comes off as bland, common, and as many have stated, cheesy.

[whitewing09]

I don't think that sound effects and props bolster a show significantly. I've seen plenty of bands that had flashy effects, but they don't necessarily do well. In the end, a show is judged for what the students put forth to the show musically and visually. Reagan's 2006 show was deemed as the most "UIL" oriented show that they had done, but it scored well in BOA. I don't know if you can really compare scores between different years, but if you do, Reagan 2006's scores were comparable or even better than the previous years which were more "BOA" oriented. Bell and Marcus seem to have flashy shows, but in the end, they have talent as most BOA bands.