Area E Marching Contest

[princess]

OK - I'll ask again....does anyone know what the final rankings were?

[MrBandDad]

  dcjudge said:

Um and those band swould all miss football games...look at the Katy schools they HAD to go to football games the day of Area.....there is no way Supers would ok this....no way....sorry

 

 

Good point. We cannot mess with the sacred football. I quess a regular season football game will always be more important than a school attending a State Marching Band Contest.

 

How about this. Take the top 10 from each area then split the areas in North and South. Have State Semis one weekend then State Finals as they are now. You get one run at the Semis then take the top 15 and they go to San Antonio for Finals. This is the same number of contest we have now with fewer Judges and venues for the events. Think about how many venues and judges it takes for all the regional contests. I think this would get more state caliber bands involved in the Championships in San Antonio.

[Danpod]

This year, it looked like the Area E threads were the ones where the most trash was being talked. Coincidentally, the Area E threads are the ones where the most complaining is going down.

 

A disturbing trend that I have noticed this year from working marching contests is that students seem to focus on the results rather than the performance. I can understand the disappointment. However, I am a firm believer that a great performance far outshines a great result. I can honestly tell every one of you that the best/coolest/funnest performances I have been a part of were at the contests that my program did not win or even come close to winning.

 

I know that the Txbands.com Community is a small representation of the marching arts world, but we go through this same freak out year after year. A student or a parent doesn't get the result they want after Area. All of a sudden, those people think the system needs to be revamped. No matter what the system, there will always be good programs and performances that will be left out of the next level of competition, which is why there needs to be a greater emphasis on the performance and not the trophy.

 

The result is a very small part of the marching activity. Ink can be washed away. Result sheets can get lost. Rankings can be permanently deleted from websites. The performance that you share with your closest friends is something that will stick around with you forever.

 

A very quick story that I have never shared with anyone:

My 2001 season was a very challenging one for the program I was in and for myself personally. At the end of one practice, a parent took a picture of me and my closest friends when we were in uniform. A friend of mine framed that picture and gave it to me as a Christmas present. Two years later, after I had left High School, I began to dust around the frame when I finally noticed that a message had been written on the back: Always Remember The Good Times...

 

Students, if you can remember that one statement, the disappointment that some of you went through Saturday night will be short-lived.

[brigantes]

"I agree that area should be like regionals. There should be a bar set (albiet a bar thats really hard to achieve), and if you achieve it, you should go. The elephant in the room is that everyone knows that some bands leaving certain areas this year wouldn't have even made finals in others. Thats not "Fair" if your in a really hard area (like e ) The entire point of this thing is to promote excellence, not "excellenter". If a band is excellent, it shouldn't matter who is in their area."

--------------------------

 

Yup...I hear ya. Here's a link to Fair's final performance in Area E. 5th place...sadly no trip to State for this solid performance.

 

(Hopefully links are allowed)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jykiw26wYV0

 

 

Btw...I love the sentiment that a great performance far outshines a great result. Nothing could be more true.

Edited October 25, 2010 by brigantes

[TxRaider13]

The worst of the post come after the student performs when they are upset and angry. Sometimes kids, it's better if you sleep on the result and let it breathe for a bit before you rant about it. It will allow sometime for it to sink in, and also let you reflect on what an outstanding job you did just to be named to area, and trust me those of us who have come up short of a goal were P/O. I speak from 2003 state when only 7 4A bands went to finals and we tied for 7th and were left out. We have all come across this at some point, and the best thing to do is let it breathe, besides I think the best thing that ever happened was not making finals, b/c results the next year, and state year would reflect that. Let it breathe!!! From what I can tell from videos, I would have been the happiest fan if I could have just watched this blood bath known as Area E live b/c all the schools were fantastic.

 

Besides don't be disrespect your director and school by saying another school shouldn't be there. You have go to let it go and move on.

[katsmeow]

  brigantes said:

This is what I can tell you about the Area E Finals....every single band was excellent! What a great night.

 

I'm a Cy-Fair parent and I can tell you there is nothing worse that 5th place when 4 bands are moving on to State...lol! I did think our band had earned one of those spots, but I also commend the bands who were selected by the judges to progress. Clements was fantastic and I loved Langham's clever show. Very happy to see Creek and JV and so many other CFISD programs in the finals. All of the Katy programs were very strong. There were no slouches in this very elite top 10 group.

 

Most of all, I'm proud of Cy-Fair band kids who gave Clements a 'standing' when they entered to perform at Finals and who screamed in support of their fellow CFISD schools (especially Creek and Woods). And they carried on the Fair tradition of crazy stand cheers ("tiki tiki ta ta") while waiting for judging results. (This cheer was something we had to explain to some of the parents from other schools sitting around us. I think no one disputes Cy-Fair is the wild and crazy Animal House of Area E. )

 

This is it for us...our youngest is a senior. It's been GRAND!

 

 

Brigantes - As a Clements parent who was sitting directly behind that big group of Cy-Fair kids, I want to say that they did show a remarkable amount of good sportsmanship in cheering for the other bands, even Clements, who is not in CFISD. I did see them stand for Clements and it was very much appreciated. Just as a side note, Clements' band director has 2 daughters in CFISD and his oldest is in the Langham Creek Band.

 

I too have a senior and will be really really sad for all of this to end. Being in band has been a remarkable experience for my daughter. I think for all of them it has never been about winning or losing, its the friendship, the bonds, the lessons learned, the working hard and the striving to do their best that they all will carry with them far beyond high school.

[princess]

Ok all, the results are posted:

 

http://uilforms.com/regions/23/AREA%20MARC...nals%202010.pdf

 

I find all the Langham Creek bashing interesting since they came in 2nd and 3 judges placed them first

[brigantes]

Thanks for the link princess. Interesting. As a career number-cruncher, I am always amazed at the disparity between judges when I look a band scores....especially when I see a 1 and an 8.... or any gap of more than 2 places. Even more interesting is when you look at each judge's rankings individually and when prelim scores are compared to final scores.

 

Elimination of statistical outliers could be greatly improved with more judges in each category and throwing away high and low scores/ranks....but I'm sure that's a dead horse.

 

btw....I do think all four schools who earned a trip to State deserved it. We should wish ALL band programs success and accomplishment at all levels of competition. After all, in Cy-Fair's case, had two more schools received just one more 1 each at

Regions, there would be 5 schools advancing to State from Area E rather than 4.

Edited October 25, 2010 by brigantes

[Xenon]

  princess said:

Ok all, the results are posted:

 

http://uilforms.com/regions/23/AREA%20MARC...nals%202010.pdf

 

I find all the Langham Creek bashing interesting since they came in 2nd and 3 judges placed them first

 

Since they aren't crowning a champion, the Area round doesn't employ the 1st place rule. (If 2 music and 1 marching judge have you 1st, you are 1st regardless.) But if they did, then Langham Creek would have been deemed 1st place.

[Guest]

You have to wonder when one judge gives you first in marching and the other gives you last. Does this look like last place marching to you? I think not.... Does it sound like bottom of the pack playing to you? Again I think not.

Why are we so opinionated about scoring? Because there are a lot of bands that worked really hard and that felt they put out a better product than a lot of bands that are going next tuesday. Band bashing isn't right, but neither is staying quiet when you think that the scores don't reflect the performance. Juges are professionals and have opinions too. They have no doubt worked hard to get to that level and prestige and we all respect them for that. The juges graded honestly and if that is what they saw then fine. But sometimes humans make mistakes. In all reality every band that night deserved to go. The problem is only 4 went. It is my personal opinion (which I'm entitled to have) thatsome of the better performers that night didn't go. Subjectivity will always be the number 1 factor. You could be the best marchers in the world and if the judge didn't think so, then it doesn't matter if you are or not. After watching the tape again and having the experience of pouring your soul onto the field SL knew that was the best we could have possibly done. Our director told us we won't be doing Symphonic Dreams again becuase nothing will able to match that experience. We just wished that the judges were able to record that moment as we and the rest of the audience felt it. Thats why i'm, and many other bands at area e, are frustrated. Good luck to the bands representing us. I sincerely hope you do well. You guys are what the judges thought are the best of us, and I have to commend you for that.

 

I dont want my paragraph to be viewed as a sob story for the no-state schools or a bashing of the judges. I don't intend it to come off that way. I hope you believe me when I say this. I just wanted to emphasize the fact that Saturday night was amazing. No one can disgagree. I feel sorry for the judges having to pick 4 out of 10 bands. Thats a really, really, really hard job. I don't agree with most of their descisions, but at the same time the more I watch SL and other's performance the less I really care. SL came off the field knowing that all the hard work had been worth it for that performance. Its just a shame that us (and many others) weren't (in my opinion) properly recognized for it.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Fortissimo

[Danpod]

  Fortissimo said:

You have to wonder when one judge gives you first in marching and the other gives you last. Does this look like last place marching to you? I think not.... Does it sound like bottom of the pack playing to you? Again I think not.

Why are we so opinionated about scoring? Because there are a lot of bands that worked really hard and that felt they put out a better product than a lot of bands that are going next tuesday. Band bashing isn't right, but neither is staying quiet when you think that the scores don't reflect the performance. Juges are professionals and have opinions too. They have no doubt worked hard to get to that level and prestige and we all respect them for that. The juges graded honestly and if that is what they saw then fine. But sometimes humans make mistakes. In all reality every band that night deserved to go. The problem is only 4 went. It is my personal opinion (which I'm entitled to have) thatsome of the better performers that night didn't go. Subjectivity will always be the number 1 factor. You could be the best marchers in the world and if the judge didn't think so, then it doesn't matter if you are or not. After watching the tape again and having the experience of pouring your soul onto the field SL knew that was the best we could have possibly done. Our director told us we won't be doing Symphonic Dreams again becuase nothing will able to match that experience. We just wished that the judges were able to record that moment as we and the rest of the audience felt it. Thats why i'm, and many other bands at area e, are frustrated. Good luck to the bands representing us. I sincerely hope you do well. You guys are what the judges thought are the best of us, and I have to commend you for that.

 

I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted.

[TxRaider13]

  Fortissimo said:

You have to wonder when one judge gives you first in marching and the other gives you last. Does this look like last place marching to you? I think not.... Does it sound like bottom of the pack playing to you? Again I think not.

Why are we so opinionated about scoring? Because there are a lot of bands that worked really hard and that felt they put out a better product than a lot of bands that are going next tuesday. Band bashing isn't right, but neither is staying quiet when you think that the scores don't reflect the performance. Juges are professionals and have opinions too. They have no doubt worked hard to get to that level and prestige and we all respect them for that. The juges graded honestly and if that is what they saw then fine. But sometimes humans make mistakes. In all reality every band that night deserved to go. The problem is only 4 went. It is my personal opinion (which I'm entitled to have) thatsome of the better performers that night didn't go. Subjectivity will always be the number 1 factor. You could be the best marchers in the world and if the judge didn't think so, then it doesn't matter if you are or not. After watching the tape again and having the experience of pouring your soul onto the field SL knew that was the best we could have possibly done. Our director told us we won't be doing Symphonic Dreams again becuase nothing will able to match that experience. We just wished that the judges were able to record that moment as we and the rest of the audience felt it. Thats why i'm, and many other bands at area e, are frustrated. Good luck to the bands representing us. I sincerely hope you do well. You guys are what the judges thought are the best of us, and I have to commend you for that.

 

I dont want my paragraph to be viewed as a sob story for the no-state schools or a bashing of the judges. I don't intend it to come off that way. I hope you believe me when I say this. I just wanted to emphasize the fact that Saturday night was amazing. No one can disgagree. I feel sorry for the judges having to pick 4 out of 10 bands. Thats a really, really, really hard job. I don't agree with most of their descisions, but at the same time the more I watch SL and other's performance the less I really care. SL came off the field knowing that all the hard work had been worth it for that performance. Its just a shame that us (and many others) weren't (in my opinion) properly recognized for it.

 

Someone has learned a life lesson

[king_leonides]

  brigantes said:

Thanks for the link princess. Interesting. As a career number-cruncher, I am always amazed at the disparity between judges when I look a band scores....especially when I see a 1 and an 8.... or any gap of more than 2 places.

 

Let's break down the numbers, folks.

 

SLHS did rate 1 in marching, on judge 4's sheet, and and 8 on judge 5's sheet. That is obviously inconsistent.

 

Judge 4 had a much smaller gap from 1-10, than judge 5. Judge 4 gave SHLS a score of 883, and Jersey Village, in 10th place, at 830. That's a difference of 50 points. By contrast, judge 5 gave Langham Creek an 885, and Cypress Creek a 782. Judge 5 was simply viewing much wider disparities in the competitors, than judge 4. I expect that judge 5 was probably much more critical on the sheets than judge 4. And this is probably the reason why these 2 judges were so inconsistent - not just on SLHS, but on LCHS and CWHS as well.

 

Would SLHS have qualified for state, if judge 5 had given us a 1 instead? No. That would have given SLHS an ordinal of 28, and Cy Falls an ordinal of 24. Ultimately, it would have meant the same outcome - no trip to the Alamodome for the Spartans this year.

 

Cy Falls had a raw score of 4321. SLHS had a raw score of 4117. So on a raw score basis, Cy Falls would have advanced. I have previously advocated in this board, for the elimination of ordinal systems. They skew results, by accentuating the differences between close competitors. But even that had happened last Friday, it would not have changed the outcome from last Saturday: Cy Falls goes to the Alamodome, and SLHS does not.

Edited October 26, 2010 by king_leonides

[oDesign]

This topic is extremely frustrating to read. No judging system on the face of the earth is perfect, because people are not perfect.

 

That being said, the thing that seperates a good band program from a GREAT band program is it's ability to display modesty and class, win OR lose. So please, think before you post. Trying to make excuses for why your band of choice didn't make it only reflects poorly on you.

 

Congrats to Clements, Langham Creek, Cy Woods and Cy Falls for advancing to state! You guys truly deserved it!

[Danpod]

  oDesign said:

This topic is extremely frustrating to read. No judging system on the face of the earth is perfect, because people are not perfect.

 

That being said, the thing that seperates a good band program from a GREAT band program is it's ability to display modesty and class, win OR lose. So please, think before you post. Trying to make excuses for why your band of choice didn't make it only reflects poorly on you.

 

Congrats to Clements, Langham Creek, Cy Woods and Cy Falls for advancing to state! You guys truly deserved it!

 

That is worthy of a slow clap. Thank you!!!

[brigantes]

I wish King Leo would have seen fit to quote my last paragraph as well as my first paragraph...for context.

 

I do agree, no subjective scoring system is perfect, but there are ways to mitigate issues like disparity. (The 1 and the 8 was not the only remarkable gap.) Consistency should be the goal. It takes nothing away from the advancing bands to state this obvious fact.

 

 

btw...I will say this. Subjective judging in band competitions has nothing on competitive cheer. Went down that road with my eldest daughter. I'll take band judging any day of the week. Bottom line...any of the ten finalists would have represented Area E well at State....and only the best wishes for those who were selected to do so. May they go to state and bring some glory home for us all in Area E.

Edited October 26, 2010 by brigantes

[Euphftw]

This is exactly the reason why as a student of a program it's best to not try to over-analyse the judges sheet. As a student YOU ARE BIASED, and with reason, you feel an emotional connection to your program because only you know exactly how much work you put into a show and the experiences you've had with these people. Even as a recent graduate I still have this biased towards my ala mater, I still feel emotionally invested in the program, and it clouds the judging mind. It's expected missing out on something like state sucks, or not getting what you would expect at any competition, once it's ended and you've had time to cool down take a second and think. The is art and is opinionated. If you're in this activity at all I'm sure your doing it for the experience not just some simple win, if you want that you might as well do a more simple activity that doesn't consume as much time or money. "Bad" judging will probably happen more then once in you high school career. You aren't going to be talking about what Judge 4 gave you in marching in 10 yrs(I hope not), but will remember what an amazing high school experiance you had because of the activity.

 

My most memorable show happened my senior year where after our finals performance, what we felt had the most energy and emotion yet, knocked us down 2 places. But I honestly DIDN'T CARE, I could only think about the importance of the past four years and the tears of joy in my face.

 

And on another note after watching my video a couple times after, it was full of energy but not nearly as clean as prelims lol.

 

And for my last tangent. If you are going to use forums like these to chat try not to stir things up, no talking about how wrong the judges were for placing your school low or how so-and-so school doesn't sound anywhere as good as you. Regardless of if you think it is true or not, YOU ARE BIASED. At the very least if you are going to be provocative make sure you leave you school name out as too not make them look bad lamo.

[takigan]

Reposting 5A results for archive's sake (since the posted link will likely be non-working 10 years from now).

 

1. Clements (1,2,2--2,2)

2. Langham Creek (2,1,1--6,1)

3. Cypress Woods (3,5,4--3,7)

4. Cypress Falls (4,4,5--4,6)

---

5. Cy-Fair (5,6,8--5,4)

6. Cinco Ranch (6,8,6--8,3)

7. Jersey Village (7,3,3--10,9)

8. Seven Lakes (9,7,10--1,8)

9. Katy Taylor (10,9,7--7,5)

10. Cypress Creek (8,10,9--9,10)

[TxRaider13]

  takigan said:

Reposting 5A results for archive's sake (since the posted link will likely be non-working 10 years from now).

 

1. Clements (1,2,2--2,2)

2. Langham Creek (2,1,1--6,1)

3. Cypress Woods (3,5,4--3,7)

4. Cypress Falls (4,4,5--4,6)

---

5. Cy-Fair (5,6,8--5,4)

6. Cinco Ranch (6,8,6--8,3)

7. Jersey Village (7,3,3--10,9)

8. Seven Lakes (9,7,10--1,8)

9. Katy Taylor (10,9,7--7,5)

10. Cypress Creek (8,10,9--9,10)

 

Judge 4 had one major bleep in scoring, the rest seemed pretty evened out

[brigantes]

Judge 4's scores were radically different (>4 places) from Judge 5's scores in 4 instances. Now...that is not saying Judge 4 was wrong and Judge 5 was right (or visa versa). But this is where more judges and tossing of high and low scores could be helpful.

[NickRC]

  Fortissimo said:

You have to wonder when one judge gives you first in marching and the other gives you last. Does this look like last place marching to you? I think not.... Does it sound like bottom of the pack playing to you? Again I think not.

Why are we so opinionated about scoring? Because there are a lot of bands that worked really hard and that felt they put out a better product than a lot of bands that are going next tuesday. Band bashing isn't right, but neither is staying quiet when you think that the scores don't reflect the performance. Juges are professionals and have opinions too. They have no doubt worked hard to get to that level and prestige and we all respect them for that. The juges graded honestly and if that is what they saw then fine. But sometimes humans make mistakes. In all reality every band that night deserved to go. The problem is only 4 went. It is my personal opinion (which I'm entitled to have) thatsome of the better performers that night didn't go. Subjectivity will always be the number 1 factor. You could be the best marchers in the world and if the judge didn't think so, then it doesn't matter if you are or not. After watching the tape again and having the experience of pouring your soul onto the field SL knew that was the best we could have possibly done. Our director told us we won't be doing Symphonic Dreams again becuase nothing will able to match that experience. We just wished that the judges were able to record that moment as we and the rest of the audience felt it. Thats why i'm, and many other bands at area e, are frustrated. Good luck to the bands representing us. I sincerely hope you do well. You guys are what the judges thought are the best of us, and I have to commend you for that.

 

I dont want my paragraph to be viewed as a sob story for the no-state schools or a bashing of the judges. I don't intend it to come off that way. I hope you believe me when I say this. I just wanted to emphasize the fact that Saturday night was amazing. No one can disgagree. I feel sorry for the judges having to pick 4 out of 10 bands. Thats a really, really, really hard job. I don't agree with most of their descisions, but at the same time the more I watch SL and other's performance the less I really care. SL came off the field knowing that all the hard work had been worth it for that performance. Its just a shame that us (and many others) weren't (in my opinion) properly recognized for it.

 

I'm sorry that you didn't rank higher this was a very good performance and you should be proud... I definitly know where your coming from. My band last year tied for 7th in prelims and the other band tied for 7th made it to finals so I see the how frustrated you are... but don't let poor judging take away from how excellent your preformance was!

[brigantes]

I agree...be very proud of 7L's performance. It was wonderful. I remember settling in to watch finals and after seeing their performance thinking 'this is gonna be a good night for spectators and a tough night for competitors'.