All about the money

[Skyisthelimt]

I signed on to this forum for one reason only, and that is to express my sadness after seeing last night's contest at Duncanville. I miss bands like Sunset High with their high steppers, and generally feel sad that the band of America contests now boil down to who is willing to spend the money on large sets, and marching techs. Yes the kids do work hard in these bands, and the shows they present do look wonderful. Nevertheless, it is my take that given the right amount of funds, a band like Sunset High could perform and do just as well as any of these bands that won top spots in the contest last night 10-29-11. I'm not sure one can take pride in spending large sums of money? I'd love to see an even playing field, but that's never going to happen. It's ashamed for schools that have little or no financial resources. I don't have any kids at Sunset High, but I'd sure like to see them out high stepping!!

[Skyisthelimt]

  Skyisthelimt said:

I signed on to this forum for one reason only, and that is to express my sadness after seeing last night's contest at Duncanville. I miss bands like Sunset High with their high steppers, and generally feel sad that the band of America contests now boil down to who is willing to spend the money on large sets, and marching techs. Yes the kids do work hard in these bands, and the shows they present do look wonderful. Nevertheless, it is my take that given the right amount of funds, a band like Sunset High could perform and do just as well as any of these bands that won top spots in the contest last night 10-29-11. I'm not sure one can take pride in spending large sums of money? I'd love to see an even playing field, but that's never going to happen. It's ashamed for schools that have little or no financial resources. I don't have any kids at Sunset High, but I'd sure like to see them out high stepping!! P.S. I realize my poll question was well not clear, vote yes if you would like to set a limit or ceiling on what bands can spend and no if you do not.

[mellopwn1]

Okay, there are a lot of band programs that perform at a fantastically high level in relatively poor communities that spend large sums of FUNDRAISED money. Bands spend a lot of money these days to be great, but they don't suck it out of the kids pockets, but rather corporate sponsors and frequent and large scale fundraising. Even with that, expensive drill writers and arrangers and huge props don't guarantee you a win, either.

[Xenon]

Marcus did not win because they had large flashy props. They won because they marched and played better than anybody else. The props were just icing on the cake.

 

Berkner, Rowlett, Keller, Coppell, nor Klein Oak had any props. And Duncanville was 3rd at 2010 5A UIL State without any props.

 

Bowie who won BOA Arlington over LD Bell and just yesterday came in 2nd at the BOA Atlanta Super Regional close behind Tarpon Springs also doesn't have any props.

[Skyisthelimt]

  Xenon said:

Marcus did not win because they had large flashy props. They won because they marched and played better than anybody else. The props were just icing on the cake.

 

Berkner, Rowlett, Keller, Coppell, nor Klein Oak had any props. And Duncanville was 3rd at 2010 5A UIL State without any props.

 

Bowie who won BOA Arlington over LD Bell and just yesterday came in 2nd at the BOA Atlanta Super Regional close behind Tarpon Springs also doesn't have any props.

 

I agree, its more than props, its the money for the significant amount of marching techs, etc, that make the difference. I did not want to name names and don't think its fair to do so, but all the bands you speak of have plenty of money. You don't see any of the intercity bands there even though the kids work just as hard. My point is if a band is willing to spend 100K on its program surely it would be willing to send 10K to a intercity band. And btw props do matter to the judges or some of these other bands would have won over the last five years.

[Danpod]

This all sounds like bitterness. Props do not matter. You think a bunch of PVC material and tissue paper makes the difference between a 30th place band and a 1st place band? Not true. You think the only reason the best programs in the State are successful is because they use props and have lots of money? Horribly ignorant. The amount of fundraising opportunities the top programs in the State have is absolutely ridiculous.

 

You say that you were sad last night because Bands of America is all about the money and the marching techs. I hate to tell you this but the Duncanville Marching Invitational uses the UIL Scoring System and NOT the Bands of America scoring system. So we must conclude that you are sad because the UIL Scoring System is all about the money and the props. This is the part where I roll over laughing.

[Xenon]

  Skyisthelimt said:

I agree, its more than props, its the money for the significant amount of marching techs, etc, that make the difference. I did not want to name names and don't think its fair to do so, but all the bands you speak of have plenty of money. You don't see any of the intercity bands there even though the kids work just as hard. My point is if a band is willing to spend 100K on its program surely it would be willing to send 10K to a intercity band. And btw props do matter to the judges or some of these other bands would have won over the last five years.

 

Duncanville ISD (which has a consistent 5A State Finalist and 5A Honor Band and 3C Honor Band) has never spent anywhere near $100k on a marching show.

 

Duncanville has a per-capita income of ~$24k/yr while Dallas has a per-capita income of ~$26k/yr.

 

Duncanville does not hire outside marching techs. All the techs are directors within the district. They don't even pay an outside person for music or even colorguard design. Those are done by the directors as well.

 

Duncanville has to make tight money choices such as having to pull out of contests because it costs too much money to drive there.

 

The main difference with many inner city bands is that they often do not have support nor respect from their school district administration. Music education is not seen as a priority nor as anything really to strive for by the district. There is no cohesiveness or understanding between administration and directors in school districts like Dallas or Houston. Dallas ISD administration has done many things to sabotage their music programs.

 

There have been instances where Dallas ISD principals have overruled and/or fired directors that were making notable positive strides with the quality of the bands simply because their marching show didn't look enough like Grambling. It is possible to have a really good and well executed Grambling style show (there is a school in the Houston area that does any awesome job with this style), but it is not possible to properly teach the students when the administration is actively sabotaging you.

[takigan]

  Skyisthelimt said:

...the band of America contests now boil down to who is willing to spend the money on large sets, and marching techs. Yes the kids do work hard in these bands, and the shows they present do look wonderful. Nevertheless, it is my take that given the right amount of funds, a band like Sunset High could perform and do just as well as any of these bands that won top spots in the contest last night 10-29-11.

 

If Sundown had a wizard who could make $100,000 appear out of thin air for their band program, could they do better at contest? Oh certainly. Do I think it would allow them to make finals at DMI? No.

 

I can name bands that have annual band booster budgets of $300,000-$400,000 that have placed near the bottom of prelims at BOA San Antonio and I can name just as many bands that have made finals with booster budgets of less than $100,000.

 

  Quote

I'm not sure one can take pride in spending large sums of money?

 

When a kid spends an entire summer mowing lawns to help pay a portion of his/her Fair Share band fees in communities that don't have super rich parents to pay for everything, there's a certain level of ownership and pride that is gained from that experience. Band Booster programs for these high-budget bands have dozens of parents (many have upwards of 50), they're aware of the huge amount of money that needs to be raised to pay for all their instructors, designers and props. When the band community "bands together" for this financial cause, there is a powerful sense of pride that comes from this.

 

  Quote

You don't see any of the intercity bands there even though the kids work just as hard.

 

If band A spends 8 hours a week outside in rehearsal and Band B spends 8 hours a week outside in rehearsal, it doesn't mean both bands work equally as hard outside in rehearsal. If Band A works at a grueling pace with less water breaks and masters 30 sets of drill in 1 week, and Band B drags their feet in rehearsal, doesn't care and spends all of their time wishing they were somewhere else and only masters 5 sets of drill, then Band B worked much LESS than Band A, despite devoting the same amount of time to the task. You seem to think everyone works the same and competition victories are separated by intrinsic characteristics like wealth, luck, judge bias and other uncontrollable factors. This is so far from the truth it hurts....

 

  Quote

My point is if a band is willing to spend 100K on its program surely it would be willing to send 10K to a intercity band.

 

Why do you think they would be willing? Why should they? And what precedent do you have to believe this would actually help the inner-city band improve? Title I is an interesting thing. I've walked through shiny, sparkling brand new schools in slum areas paid for by Title I money taken from larger more successful districts. The school has a budget to match many wealthier schools in the area, the teachers have higher salaries than practically anywhere else but their test scores are still low. Money was never the issue.

 

 

  Quote

And btw props do matter to the judges or some of these other bands would have won over the last five years.

 

Do you know how many bands with props DIDN'T make finals? How'd Berkner, Rowlett, Keller, Coppell and Klein Oak manage to make finals without all those props? I mean the judges only think bands with props can do well right? You have bands in finals with props and those without....you have bands in outside of finals with props and those without. And if you say "Well, the band that WON had props so therefore I'm right", I could name for you several contests where the band that won had little to no props, including BOA National and UIL state champions that didn't have props. You might as well flip a coin with props or no props, because the ratio of bands that win with props vs. bands that win without them is about the same as the number of bands that use props in general vs. those that don't.

 

Do you really think judges are dumb enough to go "Ohhhhhh, look at those pretty ferris wheels, we should give them a higher score because they have those". I mean can't you see how ridiculous this claim is?

[daldhowe]

QUOTE My point is if a band is willing to spend 100K on its program surely it would be willing to send 10K to a intercity band.

 

 

Why do you think they would be willing? Why should they? And what precedent do you have to believe this would actually help the inner-city band improve? Title I is an interesting thing. I've walked through shiny, sparkling brand new schools in slum areas paid for by Title I money taken from larger more successful districts. The school has a budget to match many wealthier schools in the area, the teachers have higher salaries than practically anywhere else but their test scores are still low. Money was never the issue.

 

 

It's the same ole "Entitlement Logic". Better yet....have every band in TX pool their funds into one central location and have it 'distributed' by the Austin Legislatures!

If they really want to improve their programs....then go make it happen with fundraisers and community support and rather than excuses.

[EternalFlame]

Programs that get 100k, or 50k, or even 30k, pumped into their shows are the ones who work their arses off for that money. It isn't handed to them on a silver platter, they have to work for it - everyone from directors to students to boosters, by fundraising, promoting, etc. There is no reason why those programs should have to share that hard earned cash with programs that don't bother doing anything besides getting Title I money. No reason at all.

[Cookie_MonsterSR]

Props or no props. Money or no money, its up to the kids to perform their show. They are the ones that decide how good they are going to be not the directors or the drill writers or the parents or their sponsors. A band will be great if and only if they want to be great and they rehearse like they want to be great.

[Bandlover]

OMG! Keep this ENTITLEMENT GARBAGE OUT OF HERE ! ! ! Bands have money because they have strong booster programs; they have strong booster programs because they have parents that work their tails off during their spare time YEAR ROUND! They don't go around to other schools and tell them that they make too much money so they have to give some of it to them. If you want a strong program you have to get the parents involved, and when I say involved; that means WORKING! not complaining or begging. Get involved with the community; have fund raisers that generate serious funds; not a Saturday cookie doe sale. Find out which of your band parents have the skills to make this happen and get them involved.

 

My kids program took a serious hit this year with funding cuts. Our boosters got involved and made up the difference; it was hard work but they made it happen.

[Bandlover]

Or you could go and pitch a tent infront of Wall Street and protest the greed in todays band programs

[SomethingSomething]

  takigan said:

Do you really think judges are dumb enough to go "Ohhhhhh, look at those pretty ferris wheels, we should give them a higher score because they have those". I mean can't you see how ridiculous this claim is?

 

Yes. Yes, they are.

 

http://youtu.be/Vci4j6Zz2LE

[Xenon]

  SomethingSomething said:

Yes. Yes, they are.

 

http://youtu.be/Vci4j6Zz2LE

 

We all love Doyle Gammill.

[HHSBandMom225]

Okay. So it seems people are getting all bent out of shape over this issue of props. Let me tell you something. Marcus' show does not have props made out of PVC pipe as someone suggested in an earlier post. A family member of mine works with a Marcus band parent, and I quote, "It took us 6 hours to put those ferris wheels together." That does not sound like someone took some PVC pipe and decided to bend it into the shape of a ferris wheel. Let's gain a little perspective here, people. They bought those props, and yes, Flower Mound is an above-average income community. I have family that live there. I've been in that area many times. They have money and it's not all "from fundraisers" either. Believe it or not, there are schools that actually do charge their kids somewhere around $800-$1000 per band student as their band fees. If people are going to argue FOR those schools and try to make their argument that those schools are just "fundraising," then they need to wake up. They don't only spend that money on props, of course. They spend it on getting the best of the best to train their band students.

 

I also believe that the judges DO like the props and that props DO help the band with their score. How many people just on this forum alone last year complained because they thought some bands' shows were "boring"...even though, as it turned out, they marched beautifully and played very difficult music AND did get some recognition in some contests where props play less of a role than say, BOA...when those bands didn't use props. I mean, get real, people. If props didn't matter, WHY WOULD THOSE BIG NAME BANDS USE SO MANY OF THEM? For fun? lol Yes, I'm sure it's fun to drag those darn things on to the field and back off at every game and competition. In fact, I remember reading a post on the live blog from an LD Bell parent after the BOA in Conroe that said something to the effect of "PROPS WIN AGAIN!!" I'm assuming that post was in frustration because Marcus beat Bell and Bell's not using props THIS year. I think that parent forgot about all those crosses last year when he or she said that Bell is an "old-school" band who doesn't need props. Props are used for a reason. They help the score. If you don't think they matter "at all," then I hate to burst your bubble. I'm absolutely certain they DO matter, because there's no way Marcus would be using them otherwise.

 

However, if my kid went to Marcus and they were charging me a large amount of money for band fees, I would expect them to do something with that money. Why are people so mad about that? Let them use props if they want to...that's up to them. I'm in my third year as a Haltom band mom, and I've got seven years to go(my 10-year-old will be starting band next year and I'll have a freshman next year, too)...sorry brag moment...anyway, this is the first year since my daughter began that Haltom has used any kind of prop. It took several hundreds of hours to build it, weld it, etc. We are very proud of being able to have it in our show. Is someone going to tell me that the ONLY reason Haltom came in third at Duncanville was because of a prop? Really? I think not. They placed third because they have a very difficult show, both musically and marching(1st place in marching at TOC<<and that was before the prop was completed and ready to use.) Don't insult people by saying their band only wins because of props. I, unfortunately, hear that complaint a lot...and it led me to a sarcastic analogy that got me into trouble on another post. I know it's hard sometimes when the same bands win, but, when it comes down to it, I choose to congratulate those that win and encourage those who are still trying to get on that finals list...plus all those bands in between.

 

So the point of my essay is this: Props serve a purpose. They do help in scoring, but they are not the be-all, end-all of a win in a contest. If Marcus sucked at marching and music, even with those props, they wouldn't win competitions. Get it? It's a middle ground kind of thing, people. Don't get so bent out of shape trying to argue that props don't matter at all OR that props are the only reason bands win. It just comes across as silly.

[mellopwn1]

  HHSBandMom225 said:

They bought those props

 

If you listened to the BOA Break Ranks podcast, you would know that those ferris wheels were designed and built by parents who are mechanical engineers, so, really, the only cost was the materials which cannot be more than a thousand dollars or so, a drop in the bucket for a program like Marcus.

[Cookie_MonsterSR]

  mellopwn1 said:

If you listened to the BOA Break Ranks podcast, you would know that those ferris wheels were designed and built by parents who are mechanical engineers, so, really, the only cost was the materials which cannot be more than a thousand dollars or so, a drop in the bucket for a program like Marcus.

 

Most bands build their own props so they only have to worry about the cost of materials. Although, props to the Marcus parents, they did a great job on those ferris wheels

[HHSBandMom225]

  mellopwn1 said:

If you listened to the BOA Break Ranks podcast, you would know that those ferris wheels were designed and built by parents who are mechanical engineers, so, really, the only cost was the materials which cannot be more than a thousand dollars or so, a drop in the bucket for a program like Marcus.

 

They cost more than that...sorry. That's based on a parent FROM Marcus that works with a family member of mine...they are friends with each other and talk about band a LOT. Why would he say it only took 6 hours to build them if they were built from scratch? The ferris wheels are identical. Even with a whole bunch of people working on them, 6 hours is nothing but a Saturday morning-afternoon. Anyway, it's not PVC pipe, and they cost more than a thousand dollars... and it doesn't really matter how much it costs if the parents are willing to pay and work in fundraising to get the money to put into the band. Let's not forget the tuxedos, gorgeous bright blue dresses, flags, umbrellas, etc. etc. that are also used in their show.

 

Either way, props definitely serve a purpose and they do help with scoring...not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Xenon]

  HHSBandMom225 said:

They cost more than that...sorry. That's based on a parent FROM Marcus that works with a family member of mine...they are friends with each other and talk about band a LOT. Why would he say it only took 6 hours to build them if they were built from scratch? The ferris wheels are identical. Even with a whole bunch of people working on them, 6 hours is nothing but a Saturday morning-afternoon. Anyway, it's not PVC pipe, and they cost more than a thousand dollars... and it doesn't really matter how much it costs if the parents are willing to pay and work in fundraising to get the money to put into the band. Let's not forget the tuxedos, gorgeous bright blue dresses, flags, umbrellas, etc. etc. that are also used in their show.

 

Either way, props definitely serve a purpose and they do help with scoring...not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

Please do not mistake gossip for facts. I have talked with the Marcus directors AND the people that actually manufactured them. One of the parents works at a textile company and had the parts manufactured. The same thing with the Styrofoam candelabras from last year. Once the parts are manufactured it takes not time at all to put them together.

[Danpod]

You think a bunch of PVC material and tissue paper makes the difference between a 30th place band and a 1st place band? Not true.

 

Folks, that was a general comment suggesting that construction materials are not the only thing that separates the Finalist bands from the ones who don't quite make it. I have no idea what material their props are made out of. Frankly, I don't really care as long as they put a quality band product out on the field.

[HHSBandMom225]

  Xenon said:

Please do not mistake gossip for facts. I have talked with the Marcus directors AND the people that actually manufactured them. One of the parents works at a textile company and had the parts manufactured. The same thing with the Styrofoam candelabras from last year. Once the parts are manufactured it takes not time at all to put them together.

 

 

Excuse me. It's not gossip. Did I say that they didn't have the props manufactured? I don't believe I did. I said that seven ferris wheels costs more than just a thousand dollars to make...whether that money actually comes out of someone's pocket or not...they are not cheap props. That's my point. They're not PVC. They're not made from scratch by someone in their backyard over many, many hours. Also, I was actually supporting Marcus' right to use props if they want to. I wasn't bad mouthing them in any way. I'm not sure where that whole "gossip" comment came from. It's not like two men are sitting up at work "gossiping" about their kids' bands. Seriously. If the props are manufactured, then it would only take 6 hours to build them, right? The difference being NOT PVC pipe being manipulated into a ferris wheel shape, and having to spend hundreds of hours to build them. Is there anything wrong with them being manufactured? Nope. Is there anything wrong with them costing more than a thousand dollars? Nope. I have said nothing but positive things about the use of props, including the fact that they do matter in contests. I do not agree with people who say that it's props that win...as if the band's talent has nothing to do with it. I also don't see anything wrong with calling a duck a duck. If they look like expensive props, move like expensive props, light up like expensive props, and cost money like expensive props...they're expensive props. Let's not insult Marcus and the fact that they choose to put money in their band programs by trying to make it look like it's a bad thing.

[Danpod]

This topic is closed because I'm tired of comments being misinterpreted. We now return you to tonight's feature presentation of American Horror Story.