50 Words: BOA vs. UIL

[Danpod]

Let's try this out. I'll put together a brief fifty word synopsis of the topic. You guys can take it from there. The fifty word limit is just a thing to challenge myself a bit. You folks can use as many as you'd like! Onward....

 

Two unique judging systems here in Texas. BOA uses a system that leans toward rewarding "effect". UIL uses a system that leans toward rewarding "execution". BOA rewards the well-designed show. UIL rewards the well-performed show. Success in both is rare. I am a performance kind of guy. Preference?

[Drummantx]

I like a balance. Have a well established theme without it completely taking over the show. The focus should be on music and visual designs that reflect a theme. Not dancing, props, effects, ect that cover up the pure basics of "MARCHING" band. I prefer UIL. If you have to add a bunch of crap to get the theme across, get a better design team or chose something you can actually do.

[Danpod]

Personally, I love that UIL rewards execution. However, I've probably cheered the loudest for those shows that are well-designed. I have zero problem with programs that play to the sheets and achieve the judging criteria as it is written. If you dance, dance well. If you have props, utilize them. Whatever you do, do it well. Well-designed shows are awesome, as long as they are achieved at a high level.

[Rubisco]

I tend to agree with UIL music judges more than BOA ones. I feel like BOA music judges reward groups highly for rhythmic accuracy and clarity, which are of course important performance considerations, but they tend to overlook fundamental deficiencies in other areas (i.e. tone quality). I think good examples of this are last year's nationals (Avon = 1st in music performance, The Woodlands = 5th in music performance) and the 2004 Stephen F. Austin BOA versus UIL debacle. I was probably in the forum minority back in 2004 when I agreed with SFA's low UIL music placements. (One music judge had them 20-something, another had them dead last, and Alfred Watkins, perennial BOA judge, had them 3rd). I don't know if I would have had them dead last in music performance at UIL prelims, but certainly not high enough for finals. Once again it was a fundamental issue of tone production. SFA 2004 sounded very crass to my ears (and probably to those two UIL judges as well). BOA didn't seem to care, though, and rewarded them the high music caption at nationals. I wasn't at nationals, but it seemed highly suspicious to me at the time.

 

On the whole, though, I prefer BOA judging, if only because they take the whole package into account. They reward both design and performance. It is a common misconception that GE is all about show design. In actuality, a band cannot expect to receive a high general effect score even with a stellar show design if the performance qualities are inadequate. Anyway, this is definitely more than 50 words, and I feel like a broken record. I've said this stuff so many times before.

[Danpod]

  Rubisco said:

I tend to agree with UIL music judges more than BOA ones. I feel like BOA music judges reward groups highly for rhythmic accuracy and clarity, which are of course important performance considerations, but they tend to overlook fundamental deficiencies in other areas (i.e. tone quality). I think good examples of this are last year's nationals (Avon = 1st in music performance, The Woodlands = 5th in music performance) and the 2004 Stephen F. Austin BOA versus UIL debacle. I was probably in the forum minority back in 2004 when I agreed with SFA's low UIL music placements. (One music judge had them 20-something, another had them dead last, and Alfred Watkins, perennial BOA judge, had them 3rd). I don't know if I would have had them dead last in music performance at UIL prelims, but certainly not high enough for finals. Once again it was a fundamental issue of tone production. SFA 2004 sounded very crass to my ears (and probably to those two UIL judges as well). BOA didn't seem to care, though, and rewarded them the high music caption at nationals. I wasn't at nationals, but it seemed highly suspicious to me at the time.

 

I remember the 2004 situation quite well. For those who don't know much about this, Stephen F. Austin was pretty much slammed in Music at the 2004 UIL State Marching Contest. A few days later, they went to Grand Nationals, made Finals, and won Best Music in Finals.

 

This was a deal where you looked at both scoring sheets and asked yourself, "Which one is right????" That's how different the systems are. What sounds good for one system may not sound as good for the other system. It was a very unique situation that still has nerds like you and I talking about it today!!!!

[Rubisco]

I just did a search on the BOA forums. Oh... What a trip down memory lane! Here are SFA's UIL prelims results:

 

Austin HS mus1 21 mus2 31 mus3 3 vis1 21 vis2 22 total 98 placement 22nd

 

And some reactions:

 

SFA 22nd? TWENTY-SECOND? That is absolutely ridiculous. I hope they win nats. God UIL pisses me off so much.

 

EDIT: OMG music 2 had SFA as 31st, DEAD LAST. YEAH RIGHT. SFA the worst playing band at the competition? AMAZING

 

I don't see how SFA can get those scores. WOW! I guess there are some discrepencies (sp?).

 

wow, the music judges did a very poor job ranking these 31 bands. Austin 22nd? wow... congrats to the marching judges for being sort off close to each other. Ld bell would have won if one of the judges didnt screw them over. boo..

 

SFA had really serious problems musically. Their music was tearing very badly in many parts of the show and there were a lot of intonation problems. I was really disappointed with SFA; I was expecting a lot out of that Applachian Spring show.

 

 

That last one was the one and only Xenon. Heh. Another odd one out!

[Danpod]

  Rubisco said:

That last one was the one and only Xenon. Heh. Another odd one out!

 

Please don't look up any of my old stuff on the BOA site. I still have outstanding warrants in a few States.

[Xenon]

Yep, 2004. It was a very odd year all around.

 

SFA's performance in State Prelims was a real oddity compared to how they did the rest of the year. It was their first performance inside a dome that year and their show was so extremely rhythmically open that the acoustics (lack thereof) of the Alamodome caught the band completely off guard and caused them to tear over and over and over again.

 

Their GN performances were infinitely better than that one UIL State Prelims performance.

[Xenon]

As for BOA vs UIL...

 

Like Danpod, I am a fan of execution. Whatever you do, do it well.

 

I also love a well designed show. But design cannot stand alone. If you don't execute the design, then nobody can experience the design. Also, a poor design can often lead to poor execution.

 

No matter how different the scoring sheets are, you'll notice that the majority of the bands that do well in BOA/UIL also do well in the other circuit. There are some notable exceptions from time to time, but as a general rule it works out. The differences between the two systems tend to be limited only to the final order of the top of the top. A great example is Marcus and Bell constantly trading spots from Saturday to Tuesday, but they both still tend to be the top 2 in both systems.

 

Being an execution fan, I personally prefer the ideals behind the UIL's scoring sheets. But.... the rubrics that the UIL uses are way too vague and there is a lot of inconsistency in how those ideals are implemented by the wide variety of judges that they use.

[Rubisco]

  Xenon said:

Yep, 2004. It was a very odd year all around.

 

SFA's performance in State Prelims was a real oddity compared to how they did the rest of the year. It was their first performance inside a dome that year and their show was so extremely rhythmically open that the acoustics (lack thereof) of the Alamodome caught the band completely off guard and caused them to tear over and over and over again.

 

Their GN performances were infinitely better than that one UIL State Prelims performance.

 

It wouldn't surprise me. First dome performances can be rough. Still, if videos can be trusted, the tone quality issues I heard at UIL were not fixed at nationals. There was a sort of freight train drone to much of the music. I can't imagine that not also being a big reason UIL docked them. Anyway, it's long past. It's not an issue I hear as prominently in SFA today. I just brought it up to point out differences I notice in BOA and UIL. On a side note, I'm sort of surprised by SFA's low visual performance scores from 2004, although at least the judges were consistent.

[Danpod]

  Xenon said:

Being an execution fan, I personally prefer the ideals behind the UIL's scoring sheets. But.... the rubrics that the UIL uses are way too vague and there is a lot of inconsistency in how those ideals are implemented by the wide variety of judges that they use.

 

Precisely. The irony in the UIL system is that the Music Judges are given the exact same sheet (consistency), but the results tend to be inconsistent.

[longhornsax]

Debate aside, I'm really glad we have both systems...I don't prefer one over the other, I simply enjoy the fact that we get the opportunity to witness even MORE marching band each year, and I think the kids enjoy more chances to compete. Differences aside, I think they both have their merit and flaws, but I enjoy keeping up with both. I hope neither gets faded out because I think the combination of the two make competition season pretty exciting.

[mellopwn1]

I agree with everyone else that both systems are valuable and have their merits, but two specific things about UIL drive me crazy:

 

1. The State Contest is on a Tuesday (inconvenient for....everyone, parent or student). Because the contest is awkwardly scheduled, the stands are rarely filled to capacity and it takes students out of school (which is fun, yes, but inconvenient). One of the things I think is most special about BOA is that for most events, the stands are packed (in finals) with fans that go wild for everyone. Performing for that many people is a unique and precious experience that UIL doesn't provide.

 

 

2. Strict 8 minute time limit. This is huge pain in the **** and a constant worry for programs all season long, and even more, it limits creative development of a show. I heard this rule was instituted mainly to keep football halftime from running over ridiculously, but I don't think that's a good enough reason.

[Montoya]

  mellopwn1 said:

2. Strict 8 minute time limit. This is huge pain in the **** and a constant worry for programs all season long, and even more, it limits creative development of a show. I heard this rule was instituted mainly to keep football halftime from running over ridiculously, but I don't think that's a good enough reason.

 

 

 

"Out of limitations comes creativity."

[Rubisco]

  Montoya said:

"Out of limitations comes creativity."

 

Yes, usually in the form of a pre-show.

[mellopwn1]

  Rubisco said:

Yes, usually in the form of a pre-show.

 

I've always wondered, are pre-shows judged? Or does judging begin once the announcement is over?

[~ME~]

  mellopwn1 said:

I've always wondered, are pre-shows judged? Or does judging begin once the announcement is over?

 

 

I don't think so, but don't take my word for it. They kind of do in a unofficial way, because it kind of gives them a first impression.

[icemanf109]

Preshows are not judged, but the judges look at the band and getting their first impressions. I know lots of bands "entire" show are 9-10 min long, but for UIL, when they start judging after the preshow its only 8 min. It's just a way to include more of the show on the field at UIL events.

[TxRaider13]

Having gone to Mesquite Poteet under Scott Coulson, where he is a top dog for UIL it was always in my head that UIL is the one true way to go about judging... That being said, after graduating and now teaching I find myself just enjoying a well played/marched show. I don't care if you brought props or not, I just like hearing well played music, and watching well marched drill... The only thing I ask for at any contest, that the judging is fair, and the bands do well performed shows. BOA or UIL I just want a solid contest... I'm not sure of the school but I know last year at state I enjoyed the patriotic show from I think the band that finished near the bottom of prelims.

Edited October 7, 2012 by TxRaider13

[omnjj]

BOA shows are SOOOO much more fun to watch because it's a million times more entertaining than shows designed for UIL. It's weird though because like with Stephen F. Austin in (somewhere in the mid 2000s) when they went to state, they got like 20-something in music and when they went to Grand Nats they got like first in music... BUT ANYWAYS, I like BOA better

[takigan]

Did you even read the thread? lol

[longhorn2190]

It's always interesting to see those who succeed in both UIL and BOA, like LD Bell and Marcus. They are able to find the balance between execution and creativity.

[whitewing09]

I think another factor that people often neglect is that fact that there are on-field judges in BOA. I think scores can really change when a judge can evaluate the band from a step away.

[king_leonides]

General effect should be an explicit and separate caption on the scoring sheets. It has been this way in DCI since the very beginning. That is essentially the reason why BOA uses it. It is used in the marching championships in most states, but not in Texas. Many states replicate the BOA scoring system verbatim for their state championships. For some reason, in Texas, we decide to do things differently. It makes little sense.

 

Then again, it makes little sense having the same organization run your music contests as your football games. In most states, it is the state music educator association (their equivalent to the TMEA) who run the marching contests. But in Texas, the athletic association runs the marching contests. Does that make any sense? No, it doesn't. Do you really think that marching band is a priority for the UIL?

 

Of course, they only hold the 5A championships once every 2 years now. That makes zero sense whatsoever. I know the reasons why - it is because the marching contests are a perennial money-loser for the UIL. But imagine if the UIL tried to implement the same policy in football? What if the 5A football championship was only held once every 2 years? People in this state would be furious.

 

Naturally, UIL would pick the worst-sounding stadium in the state to host their most important contest. Yes, the Alamodome is centrally located, and I am sure that UIL gets a discounted rate at that place. But the acoustics and at that place are horrible, compared with other venues in this state (Cowboys Stadium, Reliant Arena, to name two). I have no idea why they keep going back there every year. Again, UIL makes no sense.

 

Maybe that is why some schools like SFA have simply given up on UIL, and don't go to state, even if they could easily qualify. SFA could probably win the Area E contest, but they won't bother to go. What does the director at SFA know, that the rest of us don't?

 

I really dislike UIL, and since the last of my children have graduated, I dislike them even more. Intensely. I really wish more band directors in this state would simply punch out of UIL, and focus on BOA/USBBA shows instead.

Edited October 24, 2012 by king_leonides

[mellopwn1]

  king_leonides said:

Do you really think that marching band is a priority for the UIL?

 

I don't agree with some UIL rules, but I would never say Richard Floyd and company don't care about marching band. It makes sense to unify all the activities under a single body that has the resources and clout to take care of business. Aside from a few controversial rules, UIL really does an excellent job at organizing a marching circuit. Keep in mind that many, many programs participate exclusively in UIL because they dislike BOA. To each their own, ya know?

 

  Quote

Of course, they only hold the 5A championships once every 2 years now. That makes zero sense whatsoever. I know the reasons why - it is because the marching contests are a perennial money-loser for the UIL. But imagine if the UIL tried to implement the same policy in football? What if the 5A football championship was only held once every 2 years? People in this state would be furious.

 

The UIL has a whole page of their website explaining their rationale for the every-other-year system. They didn't just decide to do it this way on their own.

 

http://www.uiltexas.org/music/marching-ban...ntest-rationale

 

The State football championship involves two schools that rarely compete every year. The marching contest being every year involved over a dozen schools in each classification having to commit to the cost and trouble of getting their program to State every single year (if the were a regular advancer). This, among the other reasons listed on their website, is why it makes logistical and competitive sense for UIL to hold such a large scale event every other year.

 

  Quote

Naturally, UIL would pick the worst-sounding stadium in the state to host their most important contest. Yes, the Alamodome is centrally located, and I am sure that UIL gets a discounted rate at that place. But the acoustics and at that place are horrible, compared with other venues in this state (Cowboys Stadium, Reliant Arena, to name two). I have no idea why they keep going back there every year. Again, UIL makes no sense.

 

If the Alamodome is good enough for UIL, BOA, and DCI, it is good enough for me. The acoustics are NOT that bad. You would be hard pressed to find another venue that presents a similar price tag, infrastructure, and scheduling availability as the Alamodome. The Cowboy Stadium would require some big bucks, and Reliant has a natural grass field (and probably isn't too cheap either). You have to keep in mind these are not-for-profit organizations and that this is high school marching band, not the super bowl.

Edited October 24, 2012 by mellopwn1