What groups should drop out of UIL?

[Rubisco]

Besides all of them. Or (if you're crazy) none of them. What are the ones that would benefit the most?

 

I was going back through some old threads and saw that rumor from a couple of years ago about how Claudia Taylor Johnson had supposedly dropped out of UIL. It ended up being false, but it got me thinking: what if they had? Also, I'm probably thinking about it more these days because Avon is coming down to SA this year and stands a very good chance of making mincemeat out of the Texas groups in the visual captions (as usual). Like last season, I probably won't comment on any of the shows, but going into this season, Avon would be my guess for SA Champion. (It'll be like Carmel 2002 all over again, but this time around it won't be the result of one judge tanking L.D. Bell in Visual GE in finals, and it'll be at a *~*SUPER*~* Regional.) Just imagine if the playing field were level. Everyone could do so much more. But who would do the most?

[principalagent]

I think there are two categories of bands who benefit from dropping out of UIL. Bands with tougher visual packages who could use a little more time cleaning up (to compete with Avon or Tarpon or BA), and bands who would be more encouraged to take more or different risks (especially visual) without worrying about being hurt by UIL judging. For the first category, Leander, Johnson, Bell and the Woodlands come to mind. Marcus and Vandegrift come to mind for the latter.

 

As for the broader point about San Antonio, I'm not so sure. Every year since at least 2010, there's at least one band in state that either did or very likely would have beat Avon head to head - although I can accept disagreement for 2011 and even 2014. The thing is, that band may not have gone to GN that year. Now, Avon is playing in Texas's home field. The chance that *1* of these bands can pass Avon is pretty high. Even in the earlier part of the century, Texas didn't have the depth that it does now. Instead of just one, maybe two bands reasonably being capable of beating Carmel and not achieving that, there are probably 6-7 that potentially could beat Avon, and all of them will be at San Antonio and hungry. Not at all to count Avon out, but Avon vs. one given band in the state tends to favor Avon. Avon vs. the field favors the field, the way I see it.

[aaron067]

Don't discount UIL just because of its rehearsal time regulations.  Texas has the strongest and deepest field of quality middle school and high school band programs in the country because of UIL and, in a somewhat different capacity, the TMEA Honor Band process.  I've never been to Grand Nationals in person, but I've been streaming finals for quite some time, and, despite how the BOA scoring system works or how certain judges may view their caption, I feel that in recent years there hasn't been a band at GN from any other state that sounds anywhere close to the Texas groups who attend, including all of the midwest groups.  They may have more effective music arrangements, and they may play louder, but the quality of the music performance they put on the field just doesn't compare to what we produce in Texas.  To me, that's always going to be the most important thing about marching band since it's just one component of instrumental music education.  I'm all for creative visual packages in marching shows because, ultimately, that's what entertains the crowds best; however...not at the expense of the fundamentals of a quality music performance.  That being said, I actually enjoyed watching SA finals more than GN finals this past year, though both were great.  SA just had overall better quality and more enjoyable shows, in my opinion.

[Anthony V]

I suppose you mean scoring benefits -- from attending BOA events instead. That seems to go knee-deep into UIL v. BOA scoring differences. Otherwise I would say -- well, the eight hour rule is gone. Work those kids like slaves! Five lashings for being out of step! Bread, water, and tears for a week! And who couldn't benefit from that? (I jest.)

 

Some time ago I made a silly, several-hundred word post on scoring rubrics in general. I think I still hold basically the same view though. The rubrics aren't on the paper, so to speak. They're somewhere out there in the minds of judges and directors. That's because the ink on the page is vague, and vague things admit a range of interpretation. The contest circuit simply selects which range they think is legitimate by selecting the judges they like. I'd like to trust the contest circuits, so think the judges and their range of interpretation generally ends up being legitimate. If that's true though, there's not really a scientific way of precisely determining the differences between the UIL/BOA scoring systems. That's because the systems are not really determined by the ink on the page or set in stone to begin with. Schrodinger's rubric sheet, if you like.

 

Your best bet would be to go out and harass -- I mean, interview -- each judge/director at length and nail things down as best as possible. All while hoping nothing important changes for the rest of the season. Then apply your findings to the way you expect certain groups will perform. At best, our predictions are vague and intuitive. Which is clearly not acceptable on Txbands. (But, in all seriousness, my point is that if discussion did head in that direction, I'm not sure it could ever be remotely conclusive. Even in principle.)

 

I agree with principalagent's third claim about San Antonio. Texas indeed has developed an interesting "depth" of high-quality groups over the past decade. (In fact, if we reflect upon it, that seems about right. The activity is young. We might well expect a good deal of flux.) I do think it's reasonable to suggest that Avon could come out on top, but only just about as reasonable as saying any other high-caliber group would come out on top. Until we have more info, probably Texas is a better bet.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Anthony V

[BandG33k73]

If Flower Mound dropped out of UIL I believe they would easily be the national champion, and I kinda think they will be even with the 8 hour rule.

[JeremiahW]

  On 3/25/2017 at 10:40 PM, BandG33k73 said:

If Flower Mound dropped out of UIL I believe they would easily be the national champion, and I kinda think they will be even with the 8 hour rule.

 

If Flower Mound brings a show like they had in 2015 or 2016, they will easily be the national champion.

[Rubisco]

principalagent - I agree entirely with the first paragraph. In the second paragraph, I don't agree that there has been a band in Texas every year since 2010 that could beat Avon. 2013, yes, obviously. 2016, maybe, although Avon was stronger visually. Other years, I'm not so certain. Certainly, it's not obvious enough that I would use the word, "likely." I do, however, agree with the last claim. The probability of Texas band X or Y or Z beating Avon is additive, and therefore probably higher overall, although Avon is VERY dominant. By the way, although I knew it would strike a nerve, my main reason for bringing this up wasn't to get into a debate over whether or not Avon will win SA.

 

aaron067 - I'm not really discounting UIL here, although it's no secret I'm not a big fan. I'm just fantasizing about the removal of the 8-hour rule, which happens pretty regularly on these forums. By the way, I agree that Texas has the deepest field of bands in the nation. I think most music educators would agree with that, even the ones who don't teach in Texas.

 

Anthony V - Eh, I don't really view this as a UIL scoring versus BOA scoring thread. Indeed, if the 8-hour rule were dropped, you'd see improvements by bands in both circuits. As such, I don't think the second paragraph, in which you describe how rubrics are internalized by judges and therefore difficult to truly distinguish, is really germane to the discussion. As for the third paragraph, I'm not completely sure to what you are referring. Do you mean that if I wanted to know how groups would change without the 8-hour rule I might start conducting interviews? Well, maybe, but this is all speculative. It is a thread on TXBands, after all.

 

BandG33k73 and JeremiahW - Maybe, unless they end up getting a prelims panel like they did in 2015 at SA, when they placed 3rd. Or a prelims panel like they did in 2016 at SA, when they placed third in Effect and had several groups scoring within a point of them. Obviously, they're fabulous and more than capable of winning an Eagle, but there's a little less agreement about their dominance than some folks would have you believe.

[Rubisco]

And before people complain, I apologize for not being a little bit more explicit that this is about the 8-hour rule. But obviously that's the main benefit of dropping out of UIL.

[aaron067]

If anything were to change, I see it being as simple as changing the band version of the 8-hour rule to what the other fine arts and athletic groups benefit from: 8 hours from the beginning of school on Monday through the end of school on Friday.  Weekends are a free-for-all.  That being said, I believe athletics has several weighty stipulations when it comes to actual practice vs. workout time vs. group gathering (such as watching videos), and Lord knows most theater programs don't seem to abide completely by their 8 hour rule (or they find "loopholes").

[JeremiahW]

  On 3/26/2017 at 2:28 AM, Rubisco said:

Maybe, unless they end up getting a prelims panel like they did in 2015 at SA, when they placed 3rd. Or a prelims panel like they did in 2016 at SA, when they placed third in Effect and had several groups scoring within a point of them. Obviously, they're fabulous and more than capable of winning an Eagle, but there's a little less agreement about their dominance than some folks would have you believe.

 

Prelims panels are inherently imperfect, especially at San Antonio where they're judging 64 bands spread across two days. Even if they were third going into semis at Grand Nats these past two years, I'm sure they would have won semis and finals.

[Xenon]

We also shouldn't completely rule out the idea that the UIL Marching Band 8-Hour Rule has likely been a long-term benefit for TX bands (and bands across the country) as TX directors have had to heavily focus on their pedagogy skills and methods in order to optimize what they can get out of those 8 hours.

[LKendrick]

  On 3/27/2017 at 4:47 AM, Xenon said:

We also shouldn't completely rule out the idea that the UIL Marching Band 8-Hour Rule has likely been a long-term benefit for TX bands (and bands across the country) as TX directors have had to heavily focus on their pedagogy skills and methods in order to optimize what they can get out of those 8 hours.

 

8 hours a week of smart teaching is certainly more effective than unlimited just rehearsing without a strategic game plan.  I'm certainly not accusing someone like Avon of not rehearsing effectively (look at who teaches them), but I'm finding out first hand how you have to plan every single thing you do so strategically to fit into those 8 hours even just in concert season, I can only imagine it's worse in marching season.  You certainly over the years learn how to become an incredibly efficient director and teacher because of it.  

[meursault]

From what I understand, part of the 8-hour rule comes from STATE LAW (through TEA), not just UIL. As far as I know, UIL only lets marching bands have 8 hours all week, while TEA mandates 8 hours from Mon-Fri (leaving weekends wide open.) But then, no more UIL competitions for a full cycle- aka two years. So let's look at potential upsides/downsides.

 

Upsides:

-Free weekend hours (big for working visual packages)

-No strange UIL judging/regulations (aka shows longer than the 8-minute cap!!!!!)

-"UIL heavy hitters" are free to explore some cooler/less traditional options (although the huge disparity of super-traditional UIL vs "modern" BOA is slowly falling away IMO)

-Makes BOA SA/BOA GN more reasonable especially with the crazy schedule of 2016 (see: CTJ)

 

Downsides:

-Lose out on free contests/chances to run show in contest setting (Region, Area... even State)

-No more UIL Region, UIL Concert, or TMEA Honor Band (I think... someone might need to fact check that) for TWO YEARS!

-lose some state-wide reputation that UIL brings

 

Honestly it's hard to tell whether it's worth it. There are a few bands that I can think that could possibly benefit from dropping UIL... but honestly, provided that memory serves correct, idk if that extra weekend block is even worth it as you still are limited to the 8-hours during the school week.

[meursault]

Also, as far as Avon winning San Antonio this year... I say, bring it on. Finals is gonna be a bloodbath.

[takigan]

A couple of points

1.  Saturday rehearsals can be VERY useful.  Broken Arrow (OK) rehearses 1-9pm on Saturdays during the season.  Harrison (GA) does 8am-4pm Saturday rehearsals.  Tarpon Springs (FL) isn't above doing 10am-9pm.  Avon (IN) has been known to do this as well.  That's more hours than most Texas bands rehearse in an entire week in many cases.  I'm fine with TEA's 8 hour rule (8 hours during the week, unlimited weekends), it's UIL's weekend restriction that I'm not a fan of.

2. I also agree with the point that, visual aside, Texas bands sound way better than BOA rubrics give them credit for.  I think the Midwest Clinic could attest to that (Texas has had more middle school wind orchestras invited to Midwest than every other state combined).  That considered, I do think bands like Carmel, BA, Avon and Tarpon Springs got tired of losing the music caption to us, and have gotten a lot better at preventing us from taking it.  I think it was us that showed them how they should sound.
 

[Rubisco]

I agree that the 8 hour rule has forced directors to use their rehearsal time more effectively. That said, I'm not convinced they'd stop using their time effectively if they could tack on occasional Saturday rehearsals. It would take at least a generation or two for them to get lazy and complacent, right?

 

For the random Flower Mound tiff: I agree that prelims panels aren't the most accurate, but FM *did* perform last last year. And in 2015, Reagan performed before them and placed 2nd. So, those results probably weren't entirely due to the overwhelming number of high quality bands. By the way, I think FM would have won last year (not 2015, though). Just one caveat: if Broken Arrow had also gone last year, they would have won. Their show was a near-masterpiece, and I don't say that lightly. But, it's all hypothetical, isn't it?

 

1,000 likes for Brandon's post. Yes, and yes!

[ChristopherRoden]

If a band were to drop out of UIL, would that mean the whole school would? IE The orchestra or theatre can't go to UIL competitions either?

[JeremiahW]

  On 4/11/2017 at 1:18 PM, ChristopherRoden said:

If a band were to drop out of UIL, would that mean the whole school would? IE The orchestra or theatre can't go to UIL competitions either?

 

A few years ago, I asked UIL director of music Bradley Kent about this. He said that because schools are members of UIL, not individual sports teams or bands, an entire school would have to withdraw from UIL competition. There might be a way to claim that an "outdoor performance ensemble" is not a marching band and is an extracurricular activity other than band that just so happens to compete in other non-UIL band events, but that logic seems unlikely to work.

 

TLDR: Never gonna happen because Texas + Football

Edited April 11, 2017 by JeremiahW

[principalagent]

Is that a recent change? Because Westfield regularly made deep runs into UIL playoffs in football around the same time that their band completely pulled out of UIL. I know the band created their own district Solo and Ensemble (for Spring as well), but I was under the impression that the rest of the school stuck to UIL.

[JeremiahW]

  On 4/11/2017 at 4:35 PM, principalagent said:

Is that a recent change? Because Westfield regularly made deep runs into UIL playoffs in football around the same time that their band completely pulled out of UIL. I know the band created their own district Solo and Ensemble (for Spring as well), but I was under the impression that the rest of the school stuck to UIL.

 

To clarify, he said a band can choose to compete or not compete in UIL-sanctioned competitions without a school pulling out of UIL, but the band would still have to follow the 8-hour rule.

[JC18]

Honestly, the fact that Texas bands even get done what they do in the eight hour rule is impressive. It'd almost be unfair for anyone else at GNats and intrastate competition if it was eliminated. 

[whitewing09]

  On 4/11/2017 at 6:34 PM, JeremiahW said:

To clarify, he said a band can choose to compete or not compete in UIL-sanctioned competitions without a school pulling out of UIL, but the band would still have to follow the 8-hour rule.

 

From my understanding he's referring to 2003 when Westfield's band withdrew from UIL specifically so they wouldn't have to follow the 8 hour rule, as opposed to CTJ just choosing not to attend UIL events, while still abiding by the UIL 8-hour rule.

[Hard Core Band Fan]

An extra 3 or 4 hours of rehearsal each week can make a huge difference if the time is used wisely, especially if it's done on a Saturday. Saturday rehearsals are a completely different animal without the school day interferences and when the whole band and the directors are in a different frame of mind. Even a highly focused 2-hour rehearsal then can reap great rewards and much cleaning and tweaking can be done. It also gives you a chance to fix something you weren't happy with on Friday night and not have to wait until Monday or Tuesday to do it.