Grand Nationals 2018???

[Nny14]

Called it!

[Rubisco]

I knew the moment that they called Tarpon in 5th, I was going to be surprised by the results. Avon lives another day in the top 3!

 

Carmel gets the first real caption sweep in BOA Grand Nationals history. I don't think they were a full point better than groups like Broken Arrow and Tarpon Springs (both of which I'm surprised missed out of the top 3), but I agree with Carmel in first.

 

Blue Springs had a great season. I hope they return soon.

 

And let's talk about those scores, and how they compare to San Antonio a week ago.

[principalagent]

I'm not a fan of the argument (mostly on structural and breadth rationale) but it's now at the point where every year where I'm getting more and more impressed by San Antonio and less and less impressed by Grand Nationals. There was some absolute garbage today in the Top 22 that would not even SNIFF San Antonio finals, or any regional in Texas barring Midland or MAYBE McAllen. I'm going to be thinking for the next couple of days if I truly think Flower Mound and Reagan would have beaten Carmel, but I am dang sure they would put up quite the fight and prevent a sweep.

[Samuel Culper]

Ok, now let's look forward to Team Texas wrecking shop at next year's GNats

[Bandwoww]

Prosper 7th in semis

[Somethingbandrelated]

That is some of the worst judging i’ve seen. Carmel is utterly boring.

[Rubisco]

Comparing Carmel to the top groups at SA, I think it would be close. Carmel has such a consistently strong visual program. I know Gaines writes for a lot of marching bands, but the work he does for Carmel is unparalleled. Musically, I much prefer the top groups at San Antonio. They produce a much fuller, more symphonic sound. And Texas groups ALWAYS bring the energy musically. So, the question, like it usually is, is whether the Indiana band's top-notch visual program would put them over a Texas music program. Maybe. It's also important to point out that Carmel always does better in music performance than I think most people and directors in Texas would predict. It's become clear over the years that BOA's adjudicators have a somewhat unique perspective on music performance.

[LeanderMomma]

I sure didn’t see that top 5. Not at all. Some day, maybe next time I am at Grand Nats, someone from that region of the country can explain to me just what makes Carmel so great. I truly do not understand and I truly do want to. Evidently their music and marching abilities are second to none, but I find myself so underwhelmed by their shows. I also did not understand Avon in second this season, so I am completely certain that there is something that I am missing. Unless it’s the phenomenal color guard these two bands have? I just really want to understand.

 

I also wonder how Texas would stack up. Is Carmel even beatable at this point?

[Nny14]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:24 AM, principalagent said:

I'm not a fan of the argument (mostly on structural and breadth rationale) but it's now at the point where every year where I'm getting more and more impressed by San Antonio and less and less impressed by Grand Nationals. There was some absolute garbage today in the Top 22 that would not even SNIFF San Antonio finals, or any regional in Texas barring Midland or MAYBE McAllen. I'm going to be thinking for the next couple of days if I truly think Flower Mound and Reagan would have beaten Carmel, but I am dang sure they would put up quite the fight and prevent a sweep.

I think FloMo and Reagan definitely could have beaten Carmel. Hebron would have won music easily, but I'm not sure they could beat Carmel overall, probably Avon though.

[LostChoirGuy]

Carmel always does better than I think they should, so I think they would be very competitive to win in San Antonio, even if I never really like their shows.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:38 AM, Rubisco said:

Comparing Carmel to the top groups at SA, I think it would be close. Carmel has such a consistently strong visual program. I know Gaines writes for a lot of marching bands, but the work he does for Carmel is unparalleled. Musically, I much prefer the top groups at San Antonio. They produce a much fuller, more symphonic sound. And Texas groups ALWAYS bring the energy musically. So, the question, like it usually is, is whether the Indiana band's top-notch visual program would put them over a Texas music program. Maybe. It's also important to point out that Carmel always does better in music performance than I think most people and directors in Texas would predict. It's become clear over the years that BOA's adjudicators have a somewhat unique perspective on music performance.

That explains it a bit. You were answering my question as I was writing it.

 

There is a small part of me that wonders if the Indy competitions are always just going to favor Indiana bands and that’s the way it is.

[principalagent]

Here are my thoughts. 

 

I am not quite sure if Carmel could get away with some of their music performance in Texas surrounded by the Texas approach to music education. I also think at this time, when guard proficiency is higher in Texas and visual packages are dramatically improving, I'm not convinced Carmel can pop crazy margins in visual like they probably could have in even 2014 or 2015. Some of these Texas shows are also turning into GE monsters, which hurts Carmel.

 

In short, Carmel may have the highest discrete possibility of winning San Antonio of any single band barring FloMo, but I would take the field over Carmel any day.

[Nny14]

Guess it's time Carmel follows Avons lead and gets their butts over here

[Samuel Culper]

If this year's Top 5 from SA had been in Indy, they would have all finished in the Top _____?

[Somethingbandrelated]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:46 AM, Samuel Culper said:

 

If this year's Top 5 from SA had been in Indy, they would have all finished in the Top _____?

7

[Ginger1229]

Congrats to Prosper! Texas bands rock!

 

Also kudos to Wando as I spent middle school and high school in SC.

 

I was a bit surprised by the results, but I wasn’t there in person. I also admit to major bias as I am a Reagan band parent. I think our band is the best every year.

[Rubisco]

Carmel's shows have always been judges' favorites as opposed to fan favorites. I think the main reason is because their shows are emotionally chilly. You don't get the big, sentimental moments from Carmel, the moments that make you tear up. You get big, awe-inspiring visual moments, yes, like at the end of their 2016 program, but do the shows ever warm your heart? Not really. That's just the way that Saucedo writes the music. I actually appreciate it, because it makes them stand out in the crowd, but even I want something a little bit more warm-blooded sometimes. Also, musically, Carmel's sound is quite a bit more delicate than your typical, blaring TX group. So sometimes that translates into an energy gap.

[Somethingbandrelated]

I really don’t think it would have been a contest betweem FloMo and Carmel. FloMo had a stronger visual program. Carmel missed coverdowns where they did not, and fell short in places it should have been clean. The music caption I dont even have to argue. FloMo easily. GE im kind of unsure, but I think it would tilt towards FloMo due to the emotions, the colors, and the incredible execution.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:52 AM, Rubisco said:

Carmel's shows have always been judges' favorites as opposed to fan favorites. I think the main reason is because their shows are emotionally chilly. You don't get the big, sentimental moments from Carmel, the moments that make you tear up. You get big, awe-inspiring visual moments, yes, like at the end of their 2016 program, but do the shows ever warm your heart? Not really. That's just the way that Saucedo writes the music. I actually appreciate it, because it makes them stand out in the crowd, but even I want something a little bit more warm-blooded sometimes. Also, musically, Carmel's sound is quite a bit more delicate than your typical, blaring TX group. So sometimes that translates into an energy gap.

Basically, Indiana bands are a bit more sophisticated than Texas bands. And the judges apparently appreciate that. Sophisticated folks have sophisticated tastes. And usually that translates to something less bold. Less “in your face.” More staid. More predictable.

 

Am I wrong?

[Crown2018]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:54 AM, Somethingbandrelated said:

 

I really don’t think it would have been a contest betweem FloMo and Carmel. FloMo had a stronger visual program. Carmel missed coverdowns where they did not, and fell short in places it should have been clean. The music caption I dont even have to argue. FloMo easily. GE im kind of unsure, but I think it would tilt towards FloMo due to the emotions, the colors, and the incredible execution.

I would’ve gone with FloMo too because Carmel musically is just eh in my opinion, yes they have visual but seriously Blue Springs was my fav of the night

[Somethingbandrelated]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:52 AM, Rubisco said:

Carmel's shows have always been judges' favorites as opposed to fan favorites. I think the main reason is because their shows are emotionally chilly. You don't get the big, sentimental moments from Carmel, the moments that make you tear up. You get big, awe-inspiring visual moments, yes, like at the end of their 2016 program, but do the shows ever warm your heart? Not really. That's just the way that Saucedo writes the music. I actually appreciate it, because it makes them stand out in the crowd, but even I want something a little bit more warm-blooded sometimes. Also, musically, Carmel's sound is quite a bit more delicate than your typical, blaring TX group. So sometimes that translates into an energy gap.

Even this year I’d still stay FloMo takes music. They dialed back their volume to pursue a better ensemble sound. They were playing at about 70-80% volume, and it allowed them to have a more delicate sound. However, they were still able to have far more impact than any of Carmels moments. Not to mention FloMo had cleaner music and it was far harder. I can’t really speak for other texas programs because I was in SA and it was incredibly loud.

[Rubisco]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:58 AM, LeanderMomma said:

Basically, Indiana bands are a bit more sophisticated than Texas bands. And the judges apparently appreciate that. Sophisticated folks have sophisticated tastes. And usually that translates to something less bold. Less “in your face.” More staid. More predictable.

 

Am I wrong?

 

I wouldn't say more predictable. In fact, the reason Carmel's visual program is so strong is because it constantly defies our expectations, and it fits the music perfectly. But yes, it is definitely less "in your face."

[LostChoirGuy]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:58 AM, LeanderMomma said:

Basically, Indiana bands are a bit more sophisticated than Texas bands. And the judges apparently appreciate that. Sophisticated folks have sophisticated tastes. And usually that translates to something less bold. Less “in your face.” More staid. More predictable.

 

Am I wrong?

I can see that with Carmel and Avon, but honestly my complaint with most Midwest bands is the opposite. They over-design their shows but then don't get anywhere deep enough with them to approach what I feel is the sophistry of the marching arts. Perhaps it is a difference in tastes, but I think of the Midwest shows like a big cake with tons of colorful fondant, while Texas shows are more like grandmas delicious moist cake recipe with buttercream frosting. Carmel and Avon are more ornate designs so they could be more like generic wedding cakes. Beautiful, and fairly tasty, but nobody really wants to slice into it and eat it because it looks too nice and lacks the feeling of the home baked cake.

[Somethingbandrelated]

  On 11/11/2018 at 5:58 AM, LeanderMomma said:

Basically, Indiana bands are a bit more sophisticated than Texas bands. And the judges apparently appreciate that. Sophisticated folks have sophisticated tastes. And usually that translates to something less bold. Less “in your face.” More staid. More predictable.

 

Am I wrong?

Quite honestly I just don’t understand it. Even if its more “Sophisticated”, there’s just no substance to their show design, theres no emotion. All they have is execution, and even then, there are programs in texas that outshine them in that. Im starting to feel like Carmel just has an unfair advantage at GN. It feels rigged, although I hesitate to throw that word out there. A sweep? No. There were other programs that should have taken GE. I can see visual and music kind of. Its either rigged or just poor judging in my eyes. SA is doing it right.

[principalagent]

Yeah Homestead and Castle are both not bands I would describe as having sophisticated show designs - especially the former. I would agree that Carmel probably does have hands down the most sophisticated shows in the nation on average. (They do have some stinkers too - 2015 anyone?)