2018 6A State

[justabandkid94]

I'm late to the party.

 

Attending state on Tuesday was quite a treat for me. First marching contest I've been to in 7 years.

 

Vista Ridge: I'm having a hard time remembering when I was blown away on this level by such dramatic improvement in between seasons (got some major Broken Arrow '06 vibes during retreat on Tuesday). What a darn feat y'all. Cherish these memories

 

I could blabber forever about how much I loved every single band. But I digress. You are all incredible people, thanks 

[TxDragonDad]

  On 11/8/2018 at 7:22 AM, 1998-2018 said:

 I know the head of UIL Judging and I can assure you they are extremely concerned. However, UIL is not a dictatorship. When it comes to changing rules, it's more like a democracy. In fact you could argue it even has similarities to an electoral college. In the spring a presentation will be made to all the Directors regarding proposed changes. The significant opposition to change is coming from Directors, not leadership. The presentation will not be everything UIL leadership wants. It will represent a compromise they hope will pass. 

 

Blaming "UIL" for this is a bit too nonspecific. This issue is squarely in the hands of the Directors.

 

 

This is key information.   I am not so certain that the directors are the ones complaining.   I am a parent.  Most complainers are parents of students who were impacted by the current issues.   However, if your information is correct, then the grass roots opportunity is to launch an awareness campaign to all Tx band directors.  Make them aware of the concern, issues, and possible solutions.   Explain to them that collectively, they can change the judging system for the better of all bands.  My son's senior year dream is a casualty of this.  Ship has sailed.  But we can do our part to prevent the same happening to the next kid.    That's the tough thing about high school competition - by the time it impacts your kid, you kid is moving on to college.  

 

BTW, all the comments about "next year" that I saw in this thread.   Well, that only works for 50% of the audience.  There is only UIL state every two years.   Two classes will graduate before that band gets another shot.   Thus, this year's event scoring issue robbed two classes worth of RRHS band students the opportunity to reach their goal.    I get that the ship has sailed, but "next year" and "next time" comments do not console nor apply.  

[gregorydf01]

  On 11/8/2018 at 10:11 PM, LostChoirGuy said:

I'll be in Texas /next/ Friday night if any bands are performing their competition show? I know it's a long shot...

Vista Ridge will be performing Lost and Found one last time this Friday at Halftime  (Gupton Stadium, Cedar Park Texas).   Kind of cool that the current 5A and 6A state champ's share the same stadium!

[1998-2018]

  On 11/8/2018 at 10:20 PM, Jeffrey L. Gorman said:

To determine what to expect look at each of the 33 Regions of UIL and match the number of High Schools in the Region with how many schools go to BOA Or US Bands vs those that do not go. Also look at the numbers of students in each school and the percentage enrolled in Bands. These decisions are not just in music, but in all areas of UIL Activity. To make things work, both sides of issues have to talk things out, neither of which in my opinion have been willing to do on a frequent basis.

I've previously tried to discuss this politely with you and repeatedly asked you to stay on topic and to stop trying to undermine the discussion with logical fallacies and misdirection. We all understand your concerns about the small schools because we are actually paying attention to what is being said. Clearly you are not. You are symbolic of the fearful, misinformed, closed-minded Directors who are preventing progress and would have UIL disappear into irrelevant obscurity. I will give you credit that you often provide interesting information and personal stories but it's also often completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion and therefore meaningless and unhelpful. I'm going to try again and I'm going to be direct this time because you still aren't paying attention. (Sorry, Dan, I've tried very hard.)

 

STOP TALKING ABOUT BOA. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT UIL!

 

Got it? Okay, let's try again and keep in mind most of us like having some difference between UIL and BOA. Understanding that alone should help you better understand and participate meaningfully in this group discussion. Most of us don't want to turn UIL into BOA and most of the 5A and 6A Directors don't want too either. What would be the point of having two identical contests separated by a single day?

 

People are primarily upset about scoring deviation and therefore the credibility of UIL advancements from Area to the SMBC, by extension advancement to SMBC Finals, and ultimately Finals placements. They are not asking for UIL to immediately convert to BOA Judging Criteria. Please stop acting like they are. It seems most people aren't even upset about who made Finals at the SMBC. The issue for most is how someone was excluded, not that they were excluded. (Some Area competitions were more complicated.) In either case, we need consistency within UIL, not with BOA, in order to have credibility and that requires clarity.

 

Period.

 

This can not be delayed further if the UIL circuit is to remain vibrant and relevant. And...it can be done without addressing major changes that include more abstract concepts like General Effect. Clarity. That's the immediate priority.

 

You think I'm wrong about the urgency of the situation? Bands are already choosing to skip the SMBC. I've also witnessed more than one conversation before Area and the SMBC where the topic was whether it is more prestigious to win the UIL Texas State Championship or BOA San Antonio Super Regional. The answer is not clear yet but the trend in the conversation is. Credibility matters. So does difficulty and innovation.

 

Another day or in another thread we can debate how to modernize UIL Judging Criteria because the choice between relevance and obscurity is coming quickly. If the current trends continue, as you support them, in your lifetime the only bands left at UIL may be very small and marching basic military drill while playing Pop Goes The Weasel because they couldn't take the risk of playing a Sousa March as originally composed. That would leave them open to someone making a mistake when the Judging Criteria already has a strong bias toward flawless execution of the simple instead of excellent execution of the difficult. Good luck with that. Some have also said DCI is "exerting pressure" on other marching circuits to "convert" but that completely misreads the situation. Kids love DCI. That's called influence and if you want kids to stay involved, you better pay attention.

 

Instead let's stick with the current issue and your objections. You keep talking about how many small schools there are and how they outnumber the large schools. I'm going to ask you to be logically consistent and look at the other side of the coin. Have you ever considered how the total number of band kids at the large schools compare to the combined total of band kids at all the small schools? You claim to represent a majority but it's all in the way you choose to define it. In addition the underdog you want to protect isn't even participating under the system you claim protects them. The 2A SMBC had 17 bands. Not Finalist, 17 total competing bands. How many kids is that? How does it compare to the level of involvement, by either number of schools or students, in the 6A SMBC? That doesn't even count 4A. You want to include 4A among your small schools? Why? It seems disingenuous considering there are six classifications in Texas and I would divide them in half, but go ahead. It doesn't really dilute my point.

 

You also consistently argue that it's not fair for small schools to have to compete against the large schools. Are you kidding me?!? Are you still confusing BOA and UIL? We're talking about UIL and I didn't see a single 2A Marching Band among the 41 competitors at the 6A SMBC. Additionally, while I did see some other 6A parents at the 2A SMBC, none of the 6A Marching Bands took the field. So please stop spouting this fallacious nonsense. At best, your concern is based on misunderstanding, or perhaps delusion, but different school size classifications don't compete against each other under UIL Judging Criteria. Nobody is suggesting that should change.

 

Next is money. You're always going on about money so let's address it again. I'll start with a big school first. Did Vista Ridge win some kind of Fine Arts lottery that accounts for their amazing improvement in one year? No. But they did go in a new direction with basically the same money and most of the same kids. (Hint: That's a dog whistle for new Director. The right Directors and staff, starting at the Intermediate School level are the first step in cracking the code to the eternal question, "Why is it always the same Bands?" We'll find out soon enough if this one knows the whole code but his actions this year indicate he may.) "But it's different at a 1A school", you keep insisting. It sure is. In fact, it's so different they really can't afford to spend a dime on a real marching program. Music education is important, so focus on your concert program and let them play in the stands at football games. Sounds extreme but I went to an isolated medium-sized California school that did that and it works well. Consider the financial reality at 1A. That's a school with about 100 students, probably less. If you want a class size of 20 students you can staff a big 1A school with 5 teachers. Now think of just the classes required for graduation in Texas. How do you competently cover that with just 5 teachers? Next consider everything else a kid should be learning to be prepared for life and higher education in the 21st century. A 6th teacher is looking like a better investment than a marching program. Hard choices are required at the 1A level. These kids are already sentenced to a 19th century education and you think keeping the whole Texas Marching Arts program there too is going to make a difference for them?!? No, thank you. It doesn't get much better at the 2A level. Your real issues are with the Texas school finance system, not UIL Marching Competition rules. Please stop being an obstructionist here. These schools should have higher priorities than the UIL Marching Competition rules too and if the rules change they will still be in the same boat, still competing with the other small schools with the same challenges, so nobody will be at a disadvantage.

 

Going to a small school is a mixed bag of advantages and disadvantages. Big schools are too. Don't begrudge the other schools advantages or force them to conform to the disadvantages of your school. It just makes a mess for everyone. Be fair. Figure out which one best fits the values of your family and then enjoy your choice. And remember, you can always change your mind and move if you're ready to shoulder the burden of the new disadvantages too. (Yes, this time I'm speaking to the larger audience still raising kids. Or even more importantly, any lurking Directors.)

 

Is anyone still with me? I'm sorry that this probably wasn't my finest hour and hopefully this is viewed as more informative, thought provoking, and persuasive, than angry rant. That was my intention.

[GreedyGreen]

  On 11/9/2018 at 4:46 AM, 1998-2018 said:

I've previously tried to discuss this politely with you and repeatedly asked you to stay on topic and to stop trying to undermine the discussion with logical fallacies and misdirection. We all understand your concerns about the small schools because we are actually paying attention to what is being said. Clearly you are not. You are symbolic of the fearful, misinformed, closed-minded Directors who are preventing progress and would have UIL disappear into irrelevant obscurity. I will give you credit that you often provide interesting information and personal stories but it's also often completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion and therefore meaningless and unhelpful. I'm going to try again and I'm going to be direct this time because you still aren't paying attention. (Sorry, Dan, I've tried very hard.)

 

STOP TALKING ABOUT BOA. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT UIL!

 

Got it? Okay, let's try again and keep in mind most of us like having some difference between UIL and BOA. Understanding that alone should help you better understand and participate meaningfully in this group discussion. Most of us don't want to turn UIL into BOA and most of the 5A and 6A Directors don't want too either. What would be the point of having two identical contests separated by a single day?

 

People are primarily upset about scoring deviation and therefore the credibility of UIL advancements from Area to the SMBC, by extension advancement to SMBC Finals, and ultimately Finals placements. They are not asking for UIL to immediately convert to BOA Judging Criteria. Please stop acting like they are. It seems most people aren't even upset about who made Finals at the SMBC. The issue for most is how someone was excluded, not that they were excluded. (Some Area competitions were more complicated.) In either case, we need consistency within UIL, not with BOA, in order to have credibility and that requires clarity.

 

Period.

 

This can not be delayed further if the UIL circuit is to remain vibrant and relevant. And...it can be done without addressing major changes that include more abstract concepts like General Effect. Clarity. That's the immediate priority.

 

You think I'm wrong about the urgency of the situation? Bands are already choosing to skip the SMBC. I've also witnessed more than one conversation before Area and the SMBC where the topic was whether it is more prestigious to win the UIL Texas State Championship or BOA San Antonio Super Regional. The answer is not clear yet but the trend in the conversation is. Credibility matters. So does difficulty and innovation.

 

Another day or in another thread we can debate how to modernize UIL Judging Criteria because the choice between relevance and obscurity is coming quickly. If the current trends continue, as you support them, in your lifetime the only bands left at UIL may be very small and marching basic military drill while playing Pop Goes The Weasel because they couldn't take the risk of playing a Sousa March as originally composed. That would leave them open to someone making a mistake when the Judging Criteria already has a strong bias toward flawless execution of the simple instead of excellent execution of the difficult. Good luck with that. Some have also said DCI is "exerting pressure" on other marching circuits to "convert" but that completely misreads the situation. Kids love DCI. That's called influence and if you want kids to stay involved, you better pay attention.

 

Instead let's stick with the current issue and your objections. You keep talking about how many small schools there are and how they outnumber the large schools. I'm going to ask you to be logically consistent and look at the other side of the coin. Have you ever considered how the total number of band kids at the large schools compare to the combined total of band kids at all the small schools? You claim to represent a majority but it's all in the way you choose to define it. In addition the underdog you want to protect isn't even participating under the system you claim protects them. The 2A SMBC had 17 bands. Not Finalist, 17 total competing bands. How many kids is that? How does it compare to the level of involvement, by either number of schools or students, in the 6A SMBC? That doesn't even count 4A. You want to include 4A among your small schools? Why? It seems disingenuous considering there are six classifications in Texas and I would divide them in half, but go ahead. It doesn't really dilute my point.

 

You also consistently argue that it's not fair for small schools to have to compete against the large schools. Are you kidding me?!? Are you still confusing BOA and UIL? We're talking about UIL and I didn't see a single 2A Marching Band among the 41 competitors at the 6A SMBC. Additionally, while I did see some other 6A parents at the 2A SMBC, none of the 6A Marching Bands took the field. So please stop spouting this fallacious nonsense. At best, your concern is based on misunderstanding, or perhaps delusion, but different school size classifications don't compete against each other under UIL Judging Criteria. Nobody is suggesting that should change.

 

Next is money. You're always going on about money so let's address it again. I'll start with a big school first. Did Vista Ridge win some kind of Fine Arts lottery that accounts for their amazing improvement in one year? No. But they did go in a new direction with basically the same money and most of the same kids. (Hint: That's a dog whistle for new Director. The right Directors and staff, starting at the Intermediate School level are the first step in cracking the code to the eternal question, "Why is it always the same Bands?" We'll find out soon enough if this one knows the whole code but his actions this year indicate he may.) "But it's different at a 1A school", you keep insisting. It sure is. In fact, it's so different they really can't afford to spend a dime on a real marching program. Music education is important, so focus on your concert program and let them play in the stands at football games. Sounds extreme but I went to an isolated medium-sized California school that did that and it works well. Consider the financial reality at 1A. That's a school with about 100 students, probably less. If you want a class size of 20 students you can staff a big 1A school with 5 teachers. Now think of just the classes required for graduation in Texas. How do you competently cover that with just 5 teachers? Next consider everything else a kid should be learning to be prepared for life and higher education in the 21st century. A 6th teacher is looking like a better investment than a marching program. Hard choices are required at the 1A level. These kids are already sentenced to a 19th century education and you think keeping the whole Texas Marching Arts program there too is going to make a difference for them?!? No, thank you. It doesn't get much better at the 2A level. Your real issues are with the Texas school finance system, not UIL Marching Competition rules. Please stop being an obstructionist here. These schools should have higher priorities than the UIL Marching Competition rules too and if the rules change they will still be in the same boat, still competing with the other small schools with the same challenges, so nobody will be at a disadvantage.

 

Going to a small school is a mixed bag of advantages and disadvantages. Big schools are too. Don't begrudge the other schools advantages or force them to conform to the disadvantages of your school. It just makes a mess for everyone. Be fair. Figure out which one best fits the values of your family and then enjoy your choice. And remember, you can always change your mind and move if you're ready to shoulder the burden of the new disadvantages too. (Yes, this time I'm speaking to the larger audience still raising kids. Or even more importantly, any lurking Directors.)

 

Is anyone still with me? I'm sorry that this probably wasn't my finest hour and hopefully this is viewed as more informative, thought provoking, and persuasive, than angry rant. That was my intention.

Your main point about money; that’s why I personally believe that UIL the way it is should stay. Because there’s such a huge disparity between different schools in Texas not only in terms of ability, but in terms of resources, and no real way to fix it, UIL is one of the only things that caters to everybody. The goals are very clear, and for the most part, it is pretty consistent. There are outliers, but everyone has to deal with them from time to time, and if I’m being honest, no matter what changes are made, someone will always be left feeling cheated.

Calling for reform would fundamentally change UIL and right now I personally believe we need to appreciate the difference that UIL has come to represent as the marching arts has evolved, and take it for what it is.

[HeyBandTX]

Proud Cedar Ridge band mom here. We placed 11th in prelims with a 9:15am prelim time. The Woodlands placed 12th with an even earlier prelim time. Not easy to do! Let’s not pretend performance time doesn’t factor into scores as well. As a result, there will never be a perfect system that makes everyone happy. We definitely know the disappointment of placing 13th in State prelims (2016) but I feel that disappointment is partially responsible for our growth the past few years. Couldn’t be prouder of our kids for making history this year. Well deserved in my opinion. Congrats to all the TX bands for another fabulous season. We all weathered the storm together!

[principalagent]

  On 11/9/2018 at 4:16 PM, HeyBandTX said:

Proud Cedar Ridge band mom here. We placed 11th in prelims with a 9:15am prelim time. The Woodlands placed 12th with an even earlier prelim time. Not easy to do! Let’s not pretend performance time doesn’t factor into scores as well. As a result, there will never be a perfect system that makes everyone happy. We definitely know the disappointment of placing 13th in State prelims (2016) but I feel that disappointment is partially responsible for our growth the past few years. Couldn’t be prouder of our kids for making history this year. Well deserved in my opinion. Congrats to all the TX bands for another fabulous season. We all weathered the storm together!

Cedar Ridge has had their best season yet this year!! So excited for their continued growth, and I really hope they go back to Indy soon!

[Guest]

  On 11/9/2018 at 4:43 PM, principalagent said:

 

Cedar Ridge has had their best season yet this year!! So excited for their continued growth, and I really hope they go back to Indy soon!

I would say their best season was 2013. That show literally made me cry.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/8/2018 at 5:23 PM, Mash said:

Wow, great write up.  If you can make it Friday to Cedar Park, they are performing it one more time.   My goodness the stands maybe fuller than I have ever seen them.

 

BTW, there will be a football game opening for the band :-)

 

There will be some Leander moms there for sure.  

[TxDragonDad]

  On 11/9/2018 at 3:13 AM, gregorydf01 said:

Vista Ridge will be performing Lost and Found one last time this Friday at Halftime  (Gupton Stadium, Cedar Park Texas).   Kind of cool that the current 5A and 6A state champ's share the same stadium!

Round Rock is playing Vista Ridge at this game.  I am excited to get to watch VR Ranger Band do their home game final run.   As my son commented frequently after UIL competition, "That flugelhorn solo is like butter.  Rich, creamy and smooooth!"   Yep, musical perfection among so many other examples in that show.    Round Rock's JV band will march, so we will no longer see their competition show.   

[LeanderMomma]

Round Rock is playing Vista Ridge at this game.  I am excited to get to watch VR Ranger Band do their home game final run.   As my son commented frequently after UIL competition, "That flugelhorn solo is like butter.  Rich, creamy and smooooth!"   Yep, musical perfection among so many other examples in that show.    Round Rock's JV band will march, so we will no longer see their competition show.   

 

awww, I was hoping to see the Dragon Band (varsity) show one more time!!

 

And your son is right.  That solo was SO SMOOTH!!  All of the VR solos were fantastic this year.  As well as that awesome Round Rock trumpet soloist.  ;-)  

[LeanderMomma]

Watching Daniel Valdez smothered in love and affection by the Vista Ridge band tonight at the VR football game is quite appropriate and oh so fantastic.

 

It's also cool seeing so many Leander letter jackets here supporting the band.

[JustBelieve]

Whoohooo so excited. Can't wait for tomorrow

[TxDragonDad]

That... was... awesome!!! It was so special to be in the stands with the VR parents and fans. The show just seemed even more beautiful with the emotion in the air. I am proud that VR represents our state 6A marching community as 2018 Champions!

[Mash]

  On 11/10/2018 at 3:38 AM, TxDragonDad said:

That... was... awesome!!! It was so special to be in the stands with the VR parents and fans. The show just seemed even more beautiful with the emotion in the air. I am proud that VR represents our state 6A marching community as 2018 Champions!

It was awesome, I totally should have mentioned where I was so we could have all could have met up.

[MarchingBandNerd]

Random thought, but I can’t be the only one who would totally pay Flower Mound to have one of their whiteboard drawings.

[Magma31651]

  On 11/11/2018 at 4:58 AM, MarchingBandNerd said:

Random thought, but I can’t be the only one who would totally pay Flower Mound to have one of their whiteboard drawings.

What I wouldn't give to have one

[Jane D'oh]

  On 11/7/2018 at 11:09 PM, scoobydoo said:

Area D 2012 a judge made the same comment about Round Rock's leg cape. I hope it wasn't the same judge. RR has had leg capes for 9 years. Maybe a judge like that shouldn't judge marching.

 

It was the same judge, who did the exact same thing to Round Rock this year as he did six years ago. It seems like a personal vendetta to me. (I had a kid in the Dragon Band in 2012, and my second kid is in Dragon Band now. It was devastating for them both times.)

 

In my opinion, the fastest and easiest "fix" for such circumstances would be to slightly revise the "bad judge rule" (the same one that saved Leander at Area this year) to protect bands in the future from one really, really, really off-base ranking like this. If the "bad judge rule" were extended or modified to address a huge discrepancy like a 20-place difference between two judges supposedly judging the same thing, 13 bands would have gone to finals this time. Yes, UIL judging needs far more reform than that; obviously there needs to be better clarification of judging criteria and improved training/calibration of judges. But anything at all to protect bands from such wild variations in ordinals would help. It would be a start, and a relatively quick and easy one at that.

 

Please know that in my opinion all 12 bands that went to finals this year absolutely deserved to be there, and Round Rock was not positioned to medal this year regardless, so this is not sour grapes or undue bias on my part. In fact, This was my last UIL year as a band parent, so I no longer have a horse in this race. But the statistician who posted earlier is absolutely right -- you other parents and directors and fans of the marching arts need to carry this torch, or it will indeed keep happening every year, and it will continue to delegitimize the competition in the public's minds.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/11/2018 at 9:40 AM, Jane D'oh said:

It was the same judge, who did the exact same thing to Round Rock this year as he did six years ago. It seems like a personal vendetta to me. (I had a kid in the Dragon Band in 2012, and my second kid is in Dragon Band now. It was devastating for them both times.)

 

This is so very telling and alarming. One judge doesn’t like Round Rocks uniform so he handily keeps them from making state finals. Very interesting. These guys sure have a lot of power. And you are right....this certainly delegitimizes the overall competition!

 

Is there anything we can really do about UIL? I would love to know. Or is it hopeless. I think a lot of band directors feel that it is indeed hopeless so they push BOA over UIL because they know they will be more fairly rewarded at BOA. At least for now....

[principalagent]

I think a not insignificant number of directors would defect from UIL if it weren't for administration/school board/community pressure to stay in.

[GeekyBandMom]

I’m speechless about one judge and RR uniforms. I’m not sure what to say, there are plenty of unconventional uniforms on the field and RR has some of the most traditional looking uniforms on the field that look amazing and are absolutely appropriate for viewing marching. I don’t have a kid at RR but I talk a lot to RR parents. They’re always gracious and talkative-heck I’ve done the full Go Rock Band chant with them just because why not? We always end up talking uniforms because RR has one of the most recognizable designs. If UIL is the great equalizer it’s up to that judge to judge marching in what they’re wearing. Scores are scores but uniform opinion going into the score at UIL, it’s wrong in every way.

[BlackJesus]

A friend told me the judge placed them so low because he "couldn't see their legs" due to the hip cape. Whatever makes him feel better for scoring them so low I guess.

[scoobydoo]

Welp, I wonder if RR should detach their leg cape if they are ever faced with him as a judge again. To my knowledge in all the years RR has had these uniforms he's the only judge that has had a problem.

[Samuel Culper]

  On 11/11/2018 at 6:06 PM, scoobydoo said:

Welp, I wonder if RR should detach their leg cape if they are ever faced with him as a judge again. To my knowledge in all the years RR has had these uniforms he's the only judge that has had a problem.

The better solution would be for a judge with a history of giving outlier scores to a particular school to not be allowed to judge again. Ever.

[scoobydoo]

  On 11/11/2018 at 6:12 PM, Samuel Culper said:

The better solution would be for a judge with a history of giving outlier scores to a particular school to not be allowed to judge again. Ever.

Agreed. I wonder if RR's director ever addressed his concern about this judge to UIL?