2018 6A State

[Mash]

That... was... awesome!!! It was so special to be in the stands with the VR parents and fans. The show just seemed even more beautiful with the emotion in the air. I am proud that VR represents our state 6A marching community as 2018 Champions!

It was awesome, I totally should have mentioned where I was so we could have all could have met up.

[MarchingBandNerd]

Random thought, but I can’t be the only one who would totally pay Flower Mound to have one of their whiteboard drawings.

[Magma31651]

Random thought, but I can’t be the only one who would totally pay Flower Mound to have one of their whiteboard drawings.

What I wouldn't give to have one

[Jane D'oh]

Area D 2012 a judge made the same comment about Round Rock's leg cape. I hope it wasn't the same judge. RR has had leg capes for 9 years. Maybe a judge like that shouldn't judge marching.

 

It was the same judge, who did the exact same thing to Round Rock this year as he did six years ago. It seems like a personal vendetta to me. (I had a kid in the Dragon Band in 2012, and my second kid is in Dragon Band now. It was devastating for them both times.)

 

In my opinion, the fastest and easiest "fix" for such circumstances would be to slightly revise the "bad judge rule" (the same one that saved Leander at Area this year) to protect bands in the future from one really, really, really off-base ranking like this. If the "bad judge rule" were extended or modified to address a huge discrepancy like a 20-place difference between two judges supposedly judging the same thing, 13 bands would have gone to finals this time. Yes, UIL judging needs far more reform than that; obviously there needs to be better clarification of judging criteria and improved training/calibration of judges. But anything at all to protect bands from such wild variations in ordinals would help. It would be a start, and a relatively quick and easy one at that.

 

Please know that in my opinion all 12 bands that went to finals this year absolutely deserved to be there, and Round Rock was not positioned to medal this year regardless, so this is not sour grapes or undue bias on my part. In fact, This was my last UIL year as a band parent, so I no longer have a horse in this race. But the statistician who posted earlier is absolutely right -- you other parents and directors and fans of the marching arts need to carry this torch, or it will indeed keep happening every year, and it will continue to delegitimize the competition in the public's minds.

[LeanderMomma]

It was the same judge, who did the exact same thing to Round Rock this year as he did six years ago. It seems like a personal vendetta to me. (I had a kid in the Dragon Band in 2012, and my second kid is in Dragon Band now. It was devastating for them both times.)

 

This is so very telling and alarming. One judge doesn’t like Round Rocks uniform so he handily keeps them from making state finals. Very interesting. These guys sure have a lot of power. And you are right....this certainly delegitimizes the overall competition!

 

Is there anything we can really do about UIL? I would love to know. Or is it hopeless. I think a lot of band directors feel that it is indeed hopeless so they push BOA over UIL because they know they will be more fairly rewarded at BOA. At least for now....

[principalagent]

I think a not insignificant number of directors would defect from UIL if it weren't for administration/school board/community pressure to stay in.

[GeekyBandMom]

I’m speechless about one judge and RR uniforms. I’m not sure what to say, there are plenty of unconventional uniforms on the field and RR has some of the most traditional looking uniforms on the field that look amazing and are absolutely appropriate for viewing marching. I don’t have a kid at RR but I talk a lot to RR parents. They’re always gracious and talkative-heck I’ve done the full Go Rock Band chant with them just because why not? We always end up talking uniforms because RR has one of the most recognizable designs. If UIL is the great equalizer it’s up to that judge to judge marching in what they’re wearing. Scores are scores but uniform opinion going into the score at UIL, it’s wrong in every way.

[BlackJesus]

A friend told me the judge placed them so low because he "couldn't see their legs" due to the hip cape. Whatever makes him feel better for scoring them so low I guess.

[scoobydoo]

Welp, I wonder if RR should detach their leg cape if they are ever faced with him as a judge again. To my knowledge in all the years RR has had these uniforms he's the only judge that has had a problem.

[Samuel Culper]

Welp, I wonder if RR should detach their leg cape if they are ever faced with him as a judge again. To my knowledge in all the years RR has had these uniforms he's the only judge that has had a problem.

The better solution would be for a judge with a history of giving outlier scores to a particular school to not be allowed to judge again. Ever.

[scoobydoo]

The better solution would be for a judge with a history of giving outlier scores to a particular school to not be allowed to judge again. Ever.

Agreed. I wonder if RR's director ever addressed his concern about this judge to UIL?

[Nny14]

Agreed. I wonder if RR's director ever addressed his concern about this judge to UIL?

He's not the type to place blame on judges, but I don't think a complaint would be ridiculous at this point. Imagine if this person had to judge Broken Arrow this year.

[LeanderMomma]

He's not the type to place blame on judges, but I don't think a complaint would be ridiculous at this point. Imagine if this person had to judge Broken Arrow this year.

I was thinking the same thing and actually it’s been said that the skirts did hurt BA this year because some judges couldn’t see their legs. I don’t see how leg capes affect that in the same way though. Round Rock’s uniform is nothing like Broken Arrow and their skirts.

[Jane D'oh]

Here's another idea for UIL:

 

What about appointing a "Chief Judge," whose job is to judge the judges. He or she would review the placements before they're released, and if there are any real standouts (like maybe a 10+ ordinal difference among judges in one category), the Chief Judge would approach the judge(s) to get justification for their decisions. If they say it was because they saw two kids at the back of the 10-yd line doing the Chicken Dance during the ballad, okay. The other marching judge probably couldn't see that, which would explain the huge difference. The score stands. If they give a reason that's not within the UIL judging criteria, like not liking the uniforms, the Chief Judge can overrule. Maybe watch video replay to judge for themselves. A band should be able to march wearing trash bags and get the same fair look as all the other bands in a UIL competition. (Not that Round Rock's uniforms are trash bags -- in my opinion, they're the best-looking uniforms on the field, bar none.) 

 

That would be a less expensive solution than going to 9 judges, and it would add a layer of accountability that might set a lot of minds at ease in the future. Of course, there's always the risk that the Chief Judge would be biased as well, but like a newspaper hiring an ombudsman, it behooves the organization to police itself and provide transparency if they want to maintain the trust and respect of the people they serve.

[BlackJesus]

Here's another idea for UIL:

 

What about appointing a "Chief Judge," whose job is to judge the judges. He or she would review the placements before they're released, and if there are any real standouts (like maybe a 10+ ordinal difference among judges in one category), the Chief Judge would approach the judge(s) to get justification for their decisions. If they say it was because they saw two kids at the back of the 10-yd line doing the Chicken Dance during the ballad, okay. The other marching judge probably couldn't see that, which would explain the huge difference. The score stands. If they give a reason that's not within the UIL judging criteria, like not liking the uniforms, the Chief Judge can overrule. Maybe watch video replay to judge for themselves. A band should be able to march wearing trash bags and get the same fair look as all the other bands in a UIL competition. (Not that Round Rock's uniforms are trash bags -- in my opinion, they're the best-looking uniforms on the field, bar none.)

 

That would be a less expensive solution than going to 9 judges, and it would add a layer of accountability that might set a lot of minds at ease in the future. Of course, there's always the risk that the Chief Judge would be biased as well, but like a newspaper hiring an ombudsman, it behooves the organization to police itself and provide transparency if they want to maintain the trust and respect of the people they serve.

I like the idea, but feel like the judges might lie about why they scored them so much lower. But then again, the judges might know that they can't screw anyone over or else be questioned, therefore scoring fairly. I've also always been in favor of investigating judges for stuff like this. You can't tell me every single judge is an angel.

[Samuel Culper]

If the chief judge has a record with him/her of each judge's history of outlier scores, that would help as well.

[1998-2018]

Reviewing ordinal scores/placements should be triggered by a percentage deviation. An ordinal point swing from 1 to 10 as happened at Area B or 1 to 9 at another Area is much more statistically significant than a swing from 74 to 84 or 100 to 110 as could theoretically happen at BOA SA or Indy Grand Nationals.

 

Percentage statistics are almost always more informative, revealing, and helpful than counting statistics.

[1998-2018]

We should also keep in mind that a low outlier might be accompanied by a high outlier from the same judge. Or a high outlier can also happen across different judges just like the lows people tend to notice more often. Both ends of the spectrum need to be actively monitored.

[TxDragonDad]

We should also keep in mind that a low outlier might be accompanied by a high outlier from the same judge. Or a high outlier can also happen across different judges just like the lows people tend to notice more often. Both ends of the spectrum need to be actively monitored.

 

There was but not to the extent of the detrimental impact to RR.    J5's rating of John Horn was overly inflated when compared to the average of all the other 4 judges.    If you look back to my original post this year, I provide a write up of the significance of the outlier impact and J5's impact.  

[TxDragonDad]

Regarding the leg "skirts" of RR Dragon Band - they are more like large sashes.   For those who would like to study them take a look at this picture.   Personally, I do not see how they could possibly obscure judging of marching.   RR band does not do any high knee moves.   The sash is a fixed size/length and can vary slightly in appearance on different sized kids.  It covers less than 1/3 the waistline circumference on most students, but it varies by waist size.   (Larger kids are less covered, super thin kids are more covered.)  The sash is roughly knee length, again appearing less on some and slightly more on others.   When moving in a large stride, the sash is pulled away from the torso and the legs easily appear separate and moving independently.   When hitting "place" or forms, the sash is irrelevant as the feet, torso and Shako plumes can easily be used to judge spacing and formation.

 

[LeanderMomma]

Regarding the leg "skirts" of RR Dragon Band - they are more like large sashes. For those who would like to study them take a look at this picture. Personally, I do not see how they could possibly obscure judging of marching. RR band does not do any high knee moves. The sash is a fixed size/length and can vary slightly in appearance on different sized kids. It covers less than 1/3 the waistline circumference on most students, but it varies by waist size. (Larger kids are less covered, super thin kids are more covered.) The sash is roughly knee length, again appearing less on some and slightly more on others. When moving in a large stride, the sash is pulled away from the torso and the legs easily appear separate and moving independently. When hitting "place" or forms, the sash is irrelevant as the feet, torso and Shako plumes can easily be used to judge spacing and formation.

 

RRDragon Leg Sash.png

Yes I agree 100%. That sash does nothing to impede a judge’s view of how RR is marching. I would surely like to hear from this judge what exactly his gripe is regarding the sash. I bet he abhors Broken Arrow this season! Or maybe he just has something against Round Rock.

[CTJBandPops]

Yes I agree 100%. That sash does nothing to impede a judge’s view of how RR is marching. I would surely like to hear from this judge what exactly his gripe is regarding the sash. I bet he abhors Broken Arrow this season! Or maybe he just has something against Round Rock.

i think we are getting hung up in the weeds - there are many things that may play into the judges interpretation of the marching. there are 5 judges in UIL and at the end of the day, it is what it is.

 

we can all agree that their needs to be a change in the UIL judging process - but I think that stating that a specific judge had a vendetta against Round Rock is a bit out there and does no one any good - I would assume that the kids have all moved on and that we should do the same.  

[Mash]

Regarding the leg "skirts" of RR Dragon Band - they are more like large sashes.   For those who would like to study them take a look at this picture.   Personally, I do not see how they could possibly obscure judging of marching.   RR band does not do any high knee moves.   The sash is a fixed size/length and can vary slightly in appearance on different sized kids.  It covers less than 1/3 the waistline circumference on most students, but it varies by waist size.   (Larger kids are less covered, super thin kids are more covered.)  The sash is roughly knee length, again appearing less on some and slightly more on others.   When moving in a large stride, the sash is pulled away from the torso and the legs easily appear separate and moving independently.   When hitting "place" or forms, the sash is irrelevant as the feet, torso and Shako plumes can easily be used to judge spacing and formation.

 

RRDragon Leg Sash.png

Crazy how that would affect judging.

[LeanderMomma]

i think we are getting hung up in the weeds - there are many things that may play into the judges interpretation of the marching. there are 5 judges in UIL and at the end of the day, it is what it is.

 

we can all agree that their needs to be a change in the UIL judging process - but I think that stating that a specific judge had a vendetta against Round Rock is a bit out there and does no one any good - I would assume that the kids have all moved on and that we should do the same.

Normally I would agree with you, but this situation has repeated itself twice, keeping Round Rock out of finals. If this was a crime scene and I were a cop, that would definitely make me look a bit harder into it. I also feel that it validates the need for dropping lowest and highest scores.

[CTJBandPops]

Crazy how that would affect judging.

lets stop for a minute and review a few things that have been discussed on these posts in the past as well as conversations I have had and consider it as part of the overall conversation. There are some known dynamics that play into the overall visual or Marching response for a band program - these are factors that play into both UIL and BOA competitions.

• What is the most common uniform color??? - it is black - if you watched both the BOA and UIL events in the past week you will see that Black is the most common color and if you are not familiar with a particular program - you cannot tell many of them apart - WHY -  against a green turf, Black hides the dirt - white stands out and will accent the marching transitions or lack their of. 
• Headgear - we have seen a number of programs that went without headgear/hats as it accents the body movement or lack of such and can impact the visual score or in the case of UIL - the marching/maneuvering scores
• Plumes - in addition to headgear - the plume highlights the body movements - a plume that stands out in white or a bright color can have an impact. Some of you may have noticed that there were a number of programs that changed plumes, eliminated plumes, or even eliminated head wear between BOA and UIL this past week
• Leg Sashes - like everything else that defines the body movement - this could be an issue - in UIL more so than BOA IMO

every director understands the visual impact that they put on the field and it is on them to address it accordingly

 

just my thoughts