BOA Dallas/Ft Worth

[Anthony V]

I said this last season -- maybe the season before -- and I'll say it again this season. The norms of the adjudication/teaching community determine what design or performance elements get such-and-such amount of points. The adjudication handbook, by contrast, is an extremely vague reminder of these norms. The direction of causality is important. But even the norms themselves are not perfectly unambiguous. And wherever there is ambiguity, there is legitimate diversity of interpretation.

 

The upshot: there is not a single score that corresponds to a band's performance or design element (e.g. music ensemble) which the judges are trying to unearth. There is, instead, a general range of acceptable scores. Directors, as I understand, may in fact dispute a score if they feel that something is terribly out of line. So, when we poke our noses into the fancy numbers on the spreadsheet, we need to bear in mind that the number provided by a judge is just one of many legitimate scores -- and sometimes even rankings -- the band could have received in that caption. Often the results could have been different to some degree, and it would have been legitimate.

At this point, people are often inclined to throw their hands in the air and repeat the trite, overused phrase: "Well, it's all subjective in the end...." But that's not the way this works. There can be scores which are out of the range of acceptability as determined by the adjudication/teaching community. The goal is to, over time, gain a better and better grasp of what adjudication ideals are implicit in both the vagueness gestured towards by the adjudication handbook, and that of the adjudication/teaching community.

With that said, we need to realize two things. Firstly, we need to realize the nascent stage of the marching arts more generally. Most disciplines, by contrast, have been around for centuries, and have had many more opportunities to consider at length what counts as good or bad assessment. Secondly, we need to acknowledge that, at least partly on account of this nascent status, there is not an often-used direct forum, so far as I understand anyway, for moving towards better adjudication ideals. Most of the impetus seems to come from designers, who put adjudicators in novel spots where they need to make discriminations that are not usually made. And so far, this is working. But it takes time.

I am not denying that there may be judges whose scores, at least from time to time, are on the verge of unacceptability. In fact, it would be a bold claim to say that adjudication error never happens. But we need to put this in the context of what counts for legitimacy. That is, in fact, a range of acceptability. I think what I am saying is compatible with some of the present concerns by some of the above posters.

[Rubisco]

So you're a band director or music major or something that would actually qualify you to question these trained and knowledgeable persons? If you are, then please elaborate and give more detail on how the scores were incorrect. If they were and you know the difference, please let us know just what errors were made.

 

Oh, dear. This is rather fatuous, no? Nobody here besides the band directors actually have access to the tapes, and even those that do only have access to their own band's. So how then can one point out "just what errors were made"? Instead, we have rather odd scores that don't seem to line up with any other educated person's assessment of the groups, including my own and my other band director friends.

 

Sure, respect the judges, because they do a thankless job, but let's not lionize them. They can, and do, make mistakes.

[Hard Core Band Fan]

Oh, dear. This is rather fatuous, no? Nobody here besides the band directors actually have access to the tapes, and even those that do only have access to their own band's. So how then can one point out "just what errors were made"? Instead, we have rather odd scores that don't seem to line up with any other educated person's assessment of the groups, including my own and my other band director friends.

 

Sure, respect the judges, because they do a thankless job, but let's not lionize them. They can, and do, make mistakes.

 

Okay, not my point. Just because someone feels that a judge or judges are incorrect - someone with far less knowledge than the judges, doesn't make them incorrect. That's all. Judge do make mistakes and I do not lionize them.

[Bandwoww]

Interesting to see how a competition like HEB that is scored similarly to BOA can have Keller and Prosper so close while at BOA they are pretty far apart. Makes me wonder how Marcus would’ve done at this competition and if they will make SA finals.

[LostChoirGuy]

Prosper added quite a bit to their show and Keller didn't. That gave Keller the chance to get their show cleaner and sounding better like prosper had done with their first 4 minutes at HEB.

[1998-2018]

Earlier in the the thread someone very bluntly told us all that the few who tried to explain how top programs are not driven by scores were disingenuously blowing smoke (or much worse) in your face. Doesn't all the discussion of bizarre scores and outright errors provide some important perspective? This is exactly what we were talking about. I can't explain or justify the variation in the judges opinions. I don't even try. But I can tell you I have seen it many times before and will definitely see it again. Get used to it. The Top programs have.

 

Some additional thoughts:

 

It's already been pointed out more than once that despite some "perceived irregularities" on the part of individual judges, the combined results make sense.

 

The best I usually get is that I agree with the judges placements plus or minus one spot. Plus or minus two spots is far more common.

 

When I heard the Finalist list my reaction was I could live with it. Everybody belonged there. I could also make an argument for a few others that could be on the list too but that's always the case.

 

When the randomized Finals schedule was released revealing the Top 5 and Bottom 5 split, my reaction was the same. I can live with this. Especially if you apply the +/- one (maybe two) expectation.

 

Cancelling Finals was disappointing but it was the right thing to do. I also heard concern regarding a Bedford noise ordinance and performances would likely have run after 1:00 AM. I also saw the field and that's the real issue. Nobody was going to have a better second run and that would just add to the dissatisfaction without adding clarity to the outcome.

 

In closing, of course top programs want to win. (Please try not to be so obtuse when expressing a dissenting opinion.) We just said scores are not their primary driving principle. When a Top program has a tough day, or year, they don't panic, get demoralized, or make excuses. They persevere and overcome. Win or lose and fight or flight are not the only options. If you want to get to the top tier and stay their you need to be more sophisticated than that. Learn to tolerate and ignore.

 

If we all tolerate and ignore a thing or two that might have rubbed us the wrong way we should be able to agree that this was a terrific way to spend a day and we would love to do it all again.

[meursault]

And what qualifies you to make this statement?

the issue is that the music ens judge:

 

A: wasn’t in line with any other scoring, by a long shot (which is not problematic, cause visual and GE are obviously different)

B: was completely different from the rest of the music scores. This is the issue. Music individual, GE, and ensemble can of course differ, but when you look at the spreads, and the music ensemble scores are VASTLY different from the most part from the other MUSIC scores, there’s something going on. Judges are fallible. It’s a bit foolish to think otherwise.

[1998-2018]

Interesting to see how a competition like HEB that is scored similarly to BOA can have Keller and Prosper so close while at BOA they are pretty far apart. Makes me wonder how Marcus would’ve done at this competition and if they will make SA finals.

One possible explanation is that Prosper needed to add about 2+ minutes to their show. It seemed like what they added was a more mellow transition perhaps leading into a ballad section. That's just a guess but without the ballad to complete this section it may not have been judged as being as strong, finished, polished, (pick your own adjective) as the earlier section we saw last week. This can happen with partial shows and I expect Prosper will do well as the season and their show develops.

 

Comparisons between contests using the same scoring system are difficult enough and HEB was an hybrid scoring system. For example, Marcus finished 0.1 point behind Keller but HornRank found a way to fit five bands between them in the Top 30 list following HEB.

 

How many decimal places are you guys using in those algorithms? :-D

[LeanderMomma]

I think the bottom line is that many of us were feeling disappointed and unsatisfied after DFW last night. At least I know I was. I was disappointed in Hebron’s performance due to the mic issue that was so distracting so I was really looking forward to a second chance at seeing them again. I was unsatisfied with the lack of finals, which obviously could NOT be helped. And I was disappointed for Coppell, who I was really expecting to make finals (and they would have if not for the one ME judge who evidently saw things differently than most of the rest of us). Mostly I was disappointed for the band kids because I know that they were anxious to perform again in finals. There are several bands, like Hebron and Cedar Park, who have a tendency to be stronger in finals performances, and I was looking forward to a little shake up at the end of the night.

 

It’s over and done with now and we can’t change any of it. Time to move forward!

[littlejaw]

It’s always disappointing when one judge changes a competition.

 

And it’s a major disappointment that without finals we don’t get to give the judge a second chance to evaluate the groups.

 

I wonder what the MPE judge (yes I know his name but won’t directly call him out) was thinking when his 3rd place ensemble didn’t make finals. As a judge if someone is in my top 3 I’m probably very excited to get a second read of what I deemed a medalist at the regional.

 

Edit: on second read, this sounds a little salty. I just want to clarify that I wish the kids had another opportunity to perform and receive the appreciation they earned from the crowd and judges.

 

In finals we don’t know if Hebron catches Flower Mound, a bottom 5 finalist breaks into the top half, etc.

 

But with that said Congratulations to all the performers!

[somethingaboutband]

I think the bottom line is that many of us were feeling disappointed and unsatisfied after DFW last night. At least I know I was. I was disappointed in Hebron’s performance due to the mic issue that was so distracting so I was really looking forward to a second chance at seeing them again. I was unsatisfied with the lack of finals, which obviously could NOT be helped. And I was disappointed for Coppell, who I was really expecting to make finals (and they would have if not for the one ME judge who evidently saw things differently than most of the rest of us). Mostly I was disappointed for the band kids because I know that they were anxious to perform again in finals. There are several bands, like Hebron and Cedar Park, who have a tendency to be stronger in finals performances, and I was looking forward to a little shake up at the end of the night.

 

It’s over and done with now and we can’t change any of it. Time to move forward!

A lot of you don't seem to realize that wasn't one of Flower Mounds best runs, in fact their parent preview was far better. They had a lot of room to improve in finals. I wouldn't sell them short.

[Bandwoww]

We all know Hebron’s issue but I did hear that Cedar Park has a disappointing run, Keller tore a few times, and other bands just for whatever reason didn’t perform how they wanted to.

[LeanderMomma]

A lot of you don't seem to realize that wasn't one of Flower Mounds best runs, in fact their parent preview was far better. They had a lot of room to improve in finals. I wouldn't sell them short.

Another reason to be disappointed that the finalists didn’t get a chance to improve over their prelims runs.

 

I don’t think people underestimate FloMo. I think people underestimate Hebron.

[Bladezz_]

Hebron's soloist mic was being picked up by the stadium's referee frequency and piped through the stadium speaker system. Someone up top eventually figured it out. It was no fault of Hebron's that they dealt with that issue, and the kids seemed to handle it quite well.

This is exactly what happened. Our show run through was pretty rough because of this. The delay onto the field was very jarring and a lot of members had bad individual runs which ultimately brought our visual score down. Hopefully everyone can check us out at a later contest because we’re only improving!

[LeanderMomma]

This is exactly what happened. Our show run through was pretty rough because of this. The delay onto the field was very jarring and a lot of members had bad individual runs which ultimately brought our visual score down. Hopefully everyone can check us out at a later contest because we’re only improving!

Yes, I’m so sorry this happened. I know it had to be very disappointing for the band kids.

[Danpod]

Want to know something really cool?  The Hebron microphone mishap gave the entire crowd a glimpse in to what the Music Individual judge hears on field level!!  What we heard over the PA system sounded awesome!!!  

[LeanderMomma]

Want to know something really cool? The Hebron microphone mishap gave the entire crowd a glimpse in to what the Music Individual judge hears on field level!! What we heard over the PA system sounded awesome!!!

They have to be super focused I bet. Not an easy job I’m sure. I shouldn’t be so hard on that ME judge.

[GreedyGreen]

I just have to tell my self that the judges are there to do the same thing; rank the bands on how each of them feel they should be placed in their respective captions. When i read the rulebook, it was made clear that points were not to be subtracted for mistakes, rather added for things done well. If the music ensemble judge had places that didn't line up with the other captions it could very well mean that most groups music ensemble was not in line with the band as a whole. Or that the judge was looking for something different. Or that the judge was completely bias and only thinks about politics. The point is that we don't know and its not our job as spectators to know. We need to be there to support the kids and to enjoy the performances and let the judges do the thing they are paid to do. And if you think about it, a faulty judge (hard to even say that though) affects EVERYONE competing under that judge. Unless they have a specific band they want to stomp on, everyone gets wonky judging, thereby making it fair in the end.

I like to think that the judges have the kids and the programs best interests at heart when judging and when we, who look at a performance from the stands with some implicit bias and little experience compared to the judge call out the judge on faulty scoring, we are not thinking about the big picture. When I saw that at BOA Austin prelims, Pflugerville who made 11th had actually gotten 3rd overall in individual visual i was perplexed. But thats exactly the job of the judges; to give credit where credit is due.

[PSHSMom]

 

This is exactly what happened. Our show run through was pretty rough because of this. The delay onto the field was very jarring and a lot of members had bad individual runs which ultimately brought our visual score down. Hopefully everyone can check us out at a later contest because we’re only improving!

I will see you next weekend at the PESH Invitational!

[whitewing09]

I understand that one Hebron mic hit the wrong frequency, but was the mic supposed to be off (it didn’t sound like a soloist moment per se) or is it just common to mic individual performers without solos?

[Mikeflight14]

Trinity is on the rise

[TexasHockeyFan]

I understand that one Hebron mic hit the wrong frequency, but was the mic supposed to be off (it didn’t sound like a soloist moment per se) or is it just common to mic individual performers without solos?

the hebron performers don’t have time to turn off mics as they’re in he bibbers pocket under the jacket. the mics are left on during the whole show, but controlled by the front sound board to turn on/off at specific times. however for this weekend, since the mics are left on, the Referee PA frequency was what had to be turned off since it’s impossible for a performer to unzip their jacket and turn off the mic (White all solos are OTM). Hebron has nothing that they could do other than have the performer stop playing.

[snares]

I finally realized something was up with the mic at the last note of the opening hit when a clarinet was clearly playing a dissonance on top of the rest of the band thinking “what the heck is that?” and then after a second I listened and jderbeath and heard that it’s actually a dissonant cord. I do think we need to give props to whatever clarinet player that was, because they sounded fantastic. I remember when I marched, many judges slammed my band for not every individual playing that well or playing even at all, so this was pretty cool to hear and see. I also hope hebron makes better use of the boxes when they add their closing movement.

I’m interested to see how FloMo progresses over the next few weeks, it’s a very interesting show and different than what I’m used to. Congrats to them, can’t wait to see them again live in a few weeks!

[josephbandfan]

I don't have a flomarching subscription (which I regret) so I still have yet to see some of these shows  at least I'll get to see flower mound and others next week at the BISD marching contest.

[whitewing09]

the hebron performers don’t have time to turn off mics as they’re in he bibbers pocket under the jacket. the mics are left on during the whole show, but controlled by the front sound board to turn on/off at specific times. however for this weekend, since the mics are left on, the Referee PA frequency was what had to be turned off since it’s impossible for a performer to unzip their jacket and turn off the mic (White all solos are OTM). Hebron has nothing that they could do other than have the performer stop playing.

Ooo that makes sense. Thanks for clarification!