Is poor judging an issue in UIL?

[MarkD33]

  On 10/29/2018 at 4:14 AM, Rudedog34 said:

 

The way I feel about it is that the general marching art community puts these individuals up on a pedestal and bow to their every whim, and we shouldn't. 

 

THIS^^^   Quite frankly, we're all browbeaten over subtle implications that scoring will be lowered if parents are too boisterous.  

[GreedyGreen]

I think another aspect in play is the judges personal opinions. They are given to band staff on tape and not always released to the public. Seeing really inconsistent scores should be followed up with questions like “what was that judge looking at?” Before things like “is that judge qualified to do their job?” In my opinion. I’m someone that wants to trust the process by default becaue everyone has to go through the same crap at the same time.

 

I can absolutely acknowledge that there are outliers and flawed judges and whatnot, but I’d be willing to bet that 99% of the time the judges are being honest with their placements (which by the way are opinions) and seeing different things in different programs. We as “the public” are often left out of the loop when it comes to judges feedback and all we see are the final results. Why was that one music score 15 below the other two? Were they looking at balance as opposed to tuning? Or maybe they don’t like how high the mellophone line was the whole time. Or maybe they heard consistent tuning issues as the baritone section played anything but fortissimo. (Just random examples I know)

 

I know I sound like I’m defending the old guys, but I’d also be willing to bet that the judges don’t get paid very much and I don’t see a reason for the judges to screw random schools over each other if they literally have to watch bands all day. It seems like a finger pointing game when it’s actually very complicated with only 2 captions and nobody on the field.

[Trumpetman7]

  On 10/29/2018 at 4:14 AM, Rudedog34 said:

I don't normally do this, and keep in mind that our band advanced in Area D and I do not particularly disagree with the results of either prelims or finals. But with the interest in UIL Judging Protocol popping up all over the threads, I'm going to give my 2 cents. I performed an evaluation of the results (scores - both ordinals and ranks) from prelims of all bands in Area D. Ordinals and Ranks all over the place. Yes, multiple worksheets in a spreadsheet yada, yada. My background is engineering and not music let alone marching arts, but there are correlations from both fields that can be used in comparison and analysis.

 

It is obvious from reading almost all, OK - ALL of the posts in the TxBands forums, that most concerns of UIL scoring in our community is not so much that a certain band was not placed where they wanted to be, It is more that our community is trying to educate themselves with the scoring process. As we educate ourselves, we find that the scoring we thought we would see, is inconsistent, anomalous and pie in the sky at times. I thought nothing of it until I had the bright idea to review Area D's scores. Again keep in mind I have no issues with the placements in Area D, it's the process and the numbers that baffles me. If score was more consistent Judge to Judge, there would have been placement changes. All bands that advanced would still have advanced. So here is my soapbox moment:

 

My analysis involved evaluating the ordinals and ranks of all judges and analyzing them for anomalous scoring by comparing the scores from each judge for each band (eg. 4, 11, 5 - Hennys prelims score for Music) Where did "11" come from? Soooo, that made me look deeper. I concluded that Henny wasn't the only band effected. What I found was that out of the 32 bands participating in Prelims, scores that fall into an anomalous catagory - J1 had 19% - J2 had 22% and J3 had 6%. 6%, while still high by my standards, I could live with that, but 20% on average from J1 & J2. I feel that this is not satisfactory at this level of adjudication.

 

Not to question a judge's experience or education to be qualified to perform adjudication, but what holds judges accountable when placed on these panels? Keep in mind that these individuals are NOT Gods. This is part of their job description that they have decided to pursue and THEY should be held accountable for their profession.

 

It is one thing to have an advanced music education or an extensive amount of experience in the marching arts and another to perform the tasks of an adjudicator in a fair and consistent manner. As is obvious from the scoring in Area D. I haven't looked at any of the other Areas and from what I read, I don't want to. The percentage of anomalous scores from 2 of the judges is not acceptable in my opinion. These inconsistencies should not exist at this level of professionalism. If it's not the system, then there should be a system of accountability in place that UIL judges should have to adhere to. Should an adjudicator's scoring deviate from the standards that are in place (what ever that is - UIL, educate us!), for any reason, they should be evaluated to determine if they are truly qualified to adjudicate at this level. When I say for any reason, how often are Music Adjudicators tested for hearing loss? How often are Marching Adjudicator's eyes tested? They may actually be scoring based on what they actually hear or see and their sight or hearing may not be what it once was (a lot of these judges are not youngsters). Have they been evaluated for favoritism? Are they consistently falling into the "anomalous catagory"? Maybe there are procedures already in place for this from UIL. How would we know as a community?

 

The way I feel about it is that the general marching art community puts these individuals up on a pedestal and bow to their every whim, and we shouldn't. They should prove to the community that they are truly qualified to perform these tasks in all aspects of experience, aptitude, and physical abilities. We as a community should be educated more by UIL in the intricacies of the judging process, procedures and accountability and not rely on hearsay. UIL should hold these adjudicators accountable for their scoring (because that's their job). If an Adjudicator is inconsistent in scoring within a percentage of all judges on a panel, then they should be evaluated to determine if they are truly qualified to be on a UIL panel. If deemed not within the standards, they should be sent down to AA (sorry baseball analogy) and work their way back into form. If they are deemed to show favoritism, they should be dismissed immediately and never used again. If they are just bad at this, then they should be mentored and reevaluated before allowing to judge again at this level. If they are consistent, fair and always on their game, then reward them. UIL and the Adjudicators of these events should be continually reminded that what they put down on those score sheets are not being reviewed by just the directors and staffs of the bands. These documents are reviewed by the thousands of Boosters, Parents and Participants of this great State. Their consistency and professionalism have an effect on the continued success of the Marching Arts in Texas. If the community starts to have doubts in the Adjudicator's abilities, they may have doubts about participation. I know kids that not only quit band but gave up music because of issues with adjudication. This is something that just should not happen.

 

Last note:

If UIL has determined that all the Adjudicators they assign to panels are truly qualified for the job at hand, then they need to evaluate and correct their scoring system, because it's flawed. I am sure there are several members of TxBands forums that would be glad to offer suggestions to systems that actually work. I could think of a few.

 

...steps off and goes back into his doghouse...

One thing I like about boa and wgi style judging is that they have systems to keep their judges in check. You can give them a grievance you have and they’ll look into the competence of the judge in question, so while I don’t necessarily think the UIL system needs to be changed I think the process for selecting judges needs to be changed and made much more accurate in determining competent judges.

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

  On 10/29/2018 at 7:54 PM, Trumpetman7 said:

One thing I like about boa and wgi style judging is that they have systems to keep their judges in check. You can give them a grievance you have and they’ll look into the competence of the judge in question, so while I don’t necessarily think the UIL system needs to be changed I think the process for selecting judges needs to be changed and made much more accurate in determining competent judges.

I think one of the major problems here is that most Band Fans in TX do not really know much at all about judging.  Using BOA and WGI as examples of good judging is not quite correct. Both of these organizations have had problems with judging which is far worse than the situation with UIL.   

 

A few thoughts to consider:

UIL has 3 different championships each year.   This year not only do we have the 6A Bands from large schools, we have 2A Bands from schools with enrollment from 198 to 450 students. The differences are startling.    The 6A Bands have in most case multiple staffs, paid show writers  a nd Bands in which most of the members are involved in only the marching band.  In the 2A schools, many of the Bands will march military style, they will have small Color Guards(if they have them at all) and their instrumentation will be much less balanced than in the big schools. This causes problems in musical balance due to constraints that the big schools do not have. UIL has to take these differences in to consideration.   

 

Another consideration is that UIL gives 60% of its score to Music and only 40% to Marching and Manuvering. I challenge anyone to show ma a Judges Association  that places as high a value on music as we do. After all this is BAND. I have taken the judging criteria of other states and thought you might find the differences interesting

 

SCSBOA (Southern CA School Band and Orchestra Association (Field Judging criteria)

Music Performance           20% of Score

Music Effect                      20% of Score

Visual Effect                     20%  of Score

Visual Performance          20%  of Score     2Judges for Each Caption

Auxilary                            10%   of Score

Percussion                       10%   of Score     1 Judge each for Percussion and Aux

Total Music Values      40%

 

Western Band Association (Contests in CA, AZ, OR, & NV

Music Effect                       15%

Visual Effect                       15%   

Ensemble Music Perf         15%

Individual Music Perf          15%

Percussion                          10%

Ensemble Visual                 10%

Individual  Visual                 10%

Auxilary                               10%     One Judge for Each Caption   total Music Captions    45%

 

Pennsylvania Cavalcade of Bands

Field  Visual                         20%

Ensemble Visual                  20%

Field Music                          20%

Ensemble   Music                20%

Overall Effect Visual            10%

Overall Effect Music             10%     One Judge for Each Caption   total music captions   50%

 

Georgia Music Educators Association

Music Performance              20%

Music Effect                         10%

Visual Performance              20%

Visual Effect                         10%

Field Conductor (DM)           20%

Percussion                           20%

Guard                                   10%      One Judge for Each Caption   total music captions   30%

 

Northern CA Band Association Field Judging

Music   Score                       35%

Field Visual                           25%

General Effect                       20%

Aux                                       10%

Percussion                            10%      Two Judges for Each Caption   Total Music Captions     35%

 

Looking at this judging association you will find that any Band that Marched Military Style,   Show Style, Big Ten Style would be hurt by the heavy emphasis on Visual Effect. In most cases the Visual content was given a Higher importance than Music.    

 

When I read this Site on years when Class 6A Bands are judged, the majority of persons tend to think that BOA style of judging is superior.  However when you read the comments from Class 2A  & 4A Bands, they prefer the UIL Scoring.    The reason is simple, the smaller schools do not have the assets to put on the field a Band with  costumes and large props.  Because of this very few class 2A or 4A Bands enter BOA Contests. They cannot compete with the large schools in money and personnel. 

 

I totally agree with UIL using a 60% music and 40% Marching and Manuvering  for their judging.  As for qualifications of judges, the Judge of Music a couple of years ago at the 6A contest who rated CTJ 24th in the Prelims was the Marching Band Director AT Auburn University and he stood by his rating.   As one who is not wowed by CTJ I thought his score was right.  The fact is that UIL has to support all the schools in TX and that is for the smaller schools as well as the Giants in class 6A.   Next year the Class 1A schools will compete. These are schools with less than 100 students in the school. No, they will not have the high cost productions of Class 6A, yes, they will march 7th and 8th Grade Students as part of the Band. UIL has the responsibility of making their contest every bit as good as the 5A will be next year. It comes only once every two years for the Class 6A Bands. They can spend their money on Grand Nationals and other events. 

[Mash]

I love watching the 2A and 3A bands.  It is a totally different experience and type of show.

 

I also like watching the military style marching of big schools, the precision is pretty incredible.

[Rudedog34]

  On 10/31/2018 at 7:22 AM, Jeffrey L. Gorman said:

I think one of the major problems here is that most Band Fans in TX do not really know much at all about judging. Using BOA and WGI as examples of good judging is not quite correct. Both of these organizations have had problems with judging which is far worse than the situation with UIL.

 

A few thoughts to consider:

UIL has 3 different championships each year. This year not only do we have the 6A Bands from large schools, we have 2A Bands from schools with enrollment from 198 to 450 students. The differences are startling. The 6A Bands have in most case multiple staffs, paid show writers a nd Bands in which most of the members are involved in only the marching band. In the 2A schools, many of the Bands will march military style, they will have small Color Guards(if they have them at all) and their instrumentation will be much less balanced than in the big schools. This causes problems in musical balance due to constraints that the big schools do not have. UIL has to take these differences in to consideration.

 

Another consideration is that UIL gives 60% of its score to Music and only 40% to Marching and Manuvering. I challenge anyone to show ma a Judges Association that places as high a value on music as we do. After all this is BAND. I have taken the judging criteria of other states and thought you might find the differences interesting

 

SCSBOA (Southern CA School Band and Orchestra Association (Field Judging criteria)

Music Performance 20% of Score

Music Effect 20% of Score

Visual Effect 20% of Score

Visual Performance 20% of Score 2Judges for Each Caption

Auxilary 10% of Score

Percussion 10% of Score 1 Judge each for Percussion and Aux

Total Music Values 40%

 

Western Band Association (Contests in CA, AZ, OR, & NV

Music Effect 15%

Visual Effect 15%

Ensemble Music Perf 15%

Individual Music Perf 15%

Percussion 10%

Ensemble Visual 10%

Individual Visual 10%

Auxilary 10% One Judge for Each Caption total Music Captions 45%

 

Pennsylvania Cavalcade of Bands

Field Visual 20%

Ensemble Visual 20%

Field Music 20%

Ensemble Music 20%

Overall Effect Visual 10%

Overall Effect Music 10% One Judge for Each Caption total music captions 50%

 

Georgia Music Educators Association

Music Performance 20%

Music Effect 10%

Visual Performance 20%

Visual Effect 10%

Field Conductor (DM) 20%

Percussion 20%

Guard 10% One Judge for Each Caption total music captions 30%

 

Northern CA Band Association Field Judging

Music Score 35%

Field Visual 25%

General Effect 20%

Aux 10%

Percussion 10% Two Judges for Each Caption Total Music Captions 35%

 

Looking at this judging association you will find that any Band that Marched Military Style, Show Style, Big Ten Style would be hurt by the heavy emphasis on Visual Effect. In most cases the Visual content was given a Higher importance than Music.

 

When I read this Site on years when Class 6A Bands are judged, the majority of persons tend to think that BOA style of judging is superior. However when you read the comments from Class 2A & 4A Bands, they prefer the UIL Scoring. The reason is simple, the smaller schools do not have the assets to put on the field a Band with costumes and large props. Because of this very few class 2A or 4A Bands enter BOA Contests. They cannot compete with the large schools in money and personnel.

 

I totally agree with UIL using a 60% music and 40% Marching and Manuvering for their judging. As for qualifications of judges, the Judge of Music a couple of years ago at the 6A contest who rated CTJ 24th in the Prelims was the Marching Band Director AT Auburn University and he stood by his rating. As one who is not wowed by CTJ I thought his score was right. The fact is that UIL has to support all the schools in TX and that is for the smaller schools as well as the Giants in class 6A. Next year the Class 1A schools will compete. These are schools with less than 100 students in the school. No, they will not have the high cost productions of Class 6A, yes, they will march 7th and 8th Grade Students as part of the Band. UIL has the responsibility of making their contest every bit as good as the 5A will be next year. It comes only once every two years for the Class 6A Bands. They can spend their money on Grand Nationals and other events.

As you point out above, there are many systems out there from multiple organisations. These systems are clearly outlined and defined. If every judge is given the same score sheet based on the defined rubric, then the scoring should be consistant. And yes. We, the community as a whole are not well versed in the scoring system or judging criteria as maybe just a few who are.

The issue, from what I can see then, is the gross inconsistancies in scoring from judge to judge. If the system is so well defined, then the judging should be consistant. Let's say you have 3 music judges (J). J1 scores a 3, J2 scores a 4 and J3 scores a 10 for band A. Then we see the music scores for band B and they are J1=8, J2=9 & J3=3. This is the problem.

As a community, we may assume that all judges are basing scores off the entire sheet. If this is so, then there may be a problem. If all judges are scoring the same criteria, there should be constancy. In the example above it is obvious that J3 is not following the system, doesn't like the book, is showing bias or maybe incapable of interpreting the system. In any case his/her score is an anomaly and should be thrown out. I touched base on this in another thread.

Now, if the judges are assigned certain areas of the score sheet (not the entire criteria) and focused on a certain area of the music, then that's a different story. That would mean that the scoring is predicated upon a judges personal opinion or preference. If that's the case then there's no need for a system and the Judges are just fans like us and score based on emotion. This is not my personal opinion, but it is a theoretical possibility.

The facts are:

Yes the community as a whole are not educated in adjudication, (I come from a sports background and only noodle on the guitar & keyboard).

 

The systems in place are not infallible.

 

The adjudicators chosen for this level of competition are not always held accountable.

 

In all fields of industries we are all held accountable. The organization's systems as well as the adjudicators who are contracted to enforce these systems should be accountable too. If the system in place is working, if the adjudicators of these events follow the systems to a T, then the community would not be in uproar.

 

The numbers don't lie.

[Dog885]

I have a radical idea that I came up with of without much though and I don't know if it would work. Olympic diving has a system where they scrap the highest and lowest two ordinals/scores that were achieved by a diver and the remaining 3 scores are added together (then multiplied for difficulty, but I don't think that's necessary for band) to get their final score. What if UIL did a similar system?

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

  On 10/31/2018 at 5:43 PM, Rudedog34 said:

As you point out above, there are many systems out there from multiple organisations. These systems are clearly outlined and defined. If every judge is given the same score sheet based on the defined rubric, then the scoring should be consistant. And yes. We, the community as a whole are not well versed in the scoring system or judging criteria as maybe just a few who are.

The issue, from what I can see then, is the gross inconsistancies in scoring from judge to judge. If the system is so well defined, then the judging should be consistant. Let's say you have 3 music judges (J). J1 scores a 3, J2 scores a 4 and J3 scores a 10 for band A. Then we see the music scores for band B and they are J1=8, J2=9 & J3=3. This is the problem.

As a community, we may assume that all judges are basing scores off the entire sheet. If this is so, then there may be a problem. If all judges are scoring the same criteria, there should be constancy. In the example above it is obvious that J3 is not following the system, doesn't like the book, is showing bias or maybe incapable of interpreting the system. In any case his/her score is an anomaly and should be thrown out. I touched base on this in another thread.

Now, if the judges are assigned certain areas of the score sheet (not the entire criteria) and focused on a certain area of the music, then that's a different story. That would mean that the scoring is predicated upon a judges personal opinion or preference. If that's the case then there's no need for a system and the Judges are just fans like us and score based on emotion. This is not my personal opinion, but it is a theoretical possibility.

The facts are:

Yes the community as a whole are not educated in adjudication, (I come from a sports background and only noodle on the guitar & keyboard).

 

The systems in place are not infallible.

 

The adjudicators chosen for this level of competition are not always held accountable.

 

In all fields of industries we are all held accountable. The organization's systems as well as the adjudicators who are contracted to enforce these systems should be accountable too. If the system in place is working, if the adjudicators of these events follow the systems to a T, then the community would not be in uproar.

 

The numbers don't lie.

You are right the numbers do not lie. However the numbers tell a different story about the Judging than most of the comments made by people who prefer the BOA type of scoring. 

I looked at the results of the Contests at MIdland, McAllen, Austin, and Bedford to determine how many Bands from the smaller classes of UIL actually attend BOA events.    Note: BOA Class A is 601 students and below.    BOA Class AA is 601-1250 Students. BOA Class AAA is 1250 students to 1750 students.  Class AAAA is 1750 students and above.

 

 

UIL is Divided into Class A  0-99 Students

                              Class AA 100 to 199 students

                              Class AAA 199 to 450 Students

                              Class AAAA 450 to 1050 students. 

 

Note the number of Bands   in Each BOA contest using BOA Numbers

Midland Class       A            2Bands

              Class      AA          2Bands

             Class       AAA       7Bands

             Class       AAAA    9 Bands

Only 4 of 20 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

McAllen

Class    A             0 Bands

Class   AA            4 Bands

Class   AAA         13 Bands

Class  AAAA        11 Bands

Only 4 of 30 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Austin

Class  A               2 Bands

Class  AA            3  Bands

Class  AAA          6 Bands

Class  AAAA        12 Bands

Only 5 of 23 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Houston

Class  A               0 Bands

Class  AA            3  Bands

Class AAA           5 Bands

Class AAAA        22 Bands

Only 3 of 30 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Bedford

Class A               1 Band

Class AA             3 Bands

Class AAA           9 Bands

Class AAAA        18 Bands

Only 4 of the 31 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Based on these results it is clear that out of the almost 800 High Schools in UIL Class A through AAAA only 20 High School Bands in the entire State entered BOA Contests. This is less than 5% of High School Bands in TX in these size schools. What should this be telling BOA

 

1. Your contests are geared to Big Schools with large staffs.   Your scoring is geared to heavy use of visual  emphasis.     You have no room for any type of military marching Bands to score well on your judging sheets.

 

2. Contrary to what is being posted here, the majority of Texas High School Bands would still prefer the UIL style to that of BOA or US BANDS

 

3.  Based on the numbers, not even 50% of the Class 6A Bands in Texas compete in BOA.  Why is this, most of these schools do not have the money to compete in the BOA Circuit, and if you think this is not a circuit, look at how many Bands do more than one BOA contest. 

 

4.  I live in Region 8 of the UIL.   We are a Region of 66 High Schools, 40 of which are Class A, AA & AAA Bands. We have 26 Class AAAA, AAAAA and AAAAAA Bands. This year only one of the 66 Schools entered a BOA contest which was rained out. They will try again on Friday afternoon. 8 of our Bands are military style bands. They would stand no chance at a BOA event. Fortunately  China Spring advanced to SMC from our Region while performing an outstanding precision drill. When was the last time anyone has seen a precision drill Band make the finals of any BOA Contest, let alone something like Grand National. I have often asked our Directors in the Class A through AAA Bands why the do not want to go to BOA and they said, " WE HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THE BANDS IN BOA. Since only 20 schools entered 5 of the contests this year, it would seem that many other directors throughout the state feel the same way. 

 

5. I am aware that there have been ongoing attempts to change the scoring system taking away the M & M  and adding visual captions instead. Please understand that while this was not acted on this fall, it will come up again. I think that with the great variance in our Bands in our State, we may stay with Ordinals and 60% Music and 40% M &M for a few more years.  

[LostChoirGuy]

Jeffrey, in advocating for the small school, which I think is a great thing, you repeatedly look past what everyone else is talking about. There are several errors in your comment. First is that BOA measures classifications on 10th-12th grades so it would not line up exactly with UIL classifications.

 

The main thing though is that this thread and most of the people on here who are arguing for changes in UIL scoring are not in any way suggesting that UIL needs to become like BOA. I personally prefer the UIL style to the BOA style also. Rather, we are noting the glaring issues with the current adjudication processes that need to be fixed in UIL and comparing them to the ways that other successful competitions, such as BOA, have worked.

[GreedyGreen]

  On 11/2/2018 at 4:48 AM, Jeffrey L. Gorman said:

You are right the numbers do not lie. However the numbers tell a different story about the Judging than most of the comments made by people who prefer the BOA type of scoring.

I looked at the results of the Contests at MIdland, McAllen, Austin, and Bedford to determine how many Bands from the smaller classes of UIL actually attend BOA events. Note: BOA Class A is 601 students and below. BOA Class AA is 601-1250 Students. BOA Class AAA is 1250 students to 1750 students. Class AAAA is 1750 students and above.

 

 

UIL is Divided into Class A 0-99 Students

Class AA 100 to 199 students

Class AAA 199 to 450 Students

Class AAAA 450 to 1050 students.

 

Note the number of Bands in Each BOA contest using BOA Numbers

Midland Class A 2Bands

Class AA 2Bands

Class AAA 7Bands

Class AAAA 9 Bands

Only 4 of 20 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

McAllen

Class A 0 Bands

Class AA 4 Bands

Class AAA 13 Bands

Class AAAA 11 Bands

Only 4 of 30 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Austin

Class A 2 Bands

Class AA 3 Bands

Class AAA 6 Bands

Class AAAA 12 Bands

Only 5 of 23 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Houston

Class A 0 Bands

Class AA 3 Bands

Class AAA 5 Bands

Class AAAA 22 Bands

Only 3 of 30 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Bedford

Class A 1 Band

Class AA 3 Bands

Class AAA 9 Bands

Class AAAA 18 Bands

Only 4 of the 31 Bands were in what the UIL would consider smaller schools

 

Based on these results it is clear that out of the almost 800 High Schools in UIL Class A through AAAA only 20 High School Bands in the entire State entered BOA Contests. This is less than 5% of High School Bands in TX in these size schools. What should this be telling BOA

 

1. Your contests are geared to Big Schools with large staffs. Your scoring is geared to heavy use of visual emphasis. You have no room for any type of military marching Bands to score well on your judging sheets.

 

2. Contrary to what is being posted here, the majority of Texas High School Bands would still prefer the UIL style to that of BOA or US BANDS

 

3. Based on the numbers, not even 50% of the Class 6A Bands in Texas compete in BOA. Why is this, most of these schools do not have the money to compete in the BOA Circuit, and if you think this is not a circuit, look at how many Bands do more than one BOA contest.

 

4. I live in Region 8 of the UIL. We are a Region of 66 High Schools, 40 of which are Class A, AA & AAA Bands. We have 26 Class AAAA, AAAAA and AAAAAA Bands. This year only one of the 66 Schools entered a BOA contest which was rained out. They will try again on Friday afternoon. 8 of our Bands are military style bands. They would stand no chance at a BOA event. Fortunately China Spring advanced to SMC from our Region while performing an outstanding precision drill. When was the last time anyone has seen a precision drill Band make the finals of any BOA Contest, let alone something like Grand National. I have often asked our Directors in the Class A through AAA Bands why the do not want to go to BOA and they said, " WE HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THE BANDS IN BOA. Since only 20 schools entered 5 of the contests this year, it would seem that many other directors throughout the state feel the same way.

 

5. I am aware that there have been ongoing attempts to change the scoring system taking away the M & M and adding visual captions instead. Please understand that while this was not acted on this fall, it will come up again. I think that with the great variance in our Bands in our State, we may stay with Ordinals and 60% Music and 40% M &M for a few more years.

 

To me it seems like the simple solution would be to just not compete in BOA if you (or your school/band/district) are not a fan of the way things are run. BOA has classifications for smaller schools, but yes a large part of the scoring is based on visual impact and many smaller schools do not have the same resources that make visual impact as easy as large props or well designed shows.

Instead of wishing that classic marching bands could be compared objectively in the same competitions as contemporary bands, just allow BOA to exist and allow UIL to exist as separate entities. There are also many competitions that are specifically for smaller schools who do not put on productions as much as marching demonstrations.

Plenty of schools that compete in BOA THRIVE off it and grow their programs, and more importantly their kids love for music and the marching arts. BOA is doing an amazing job of impacting kids in the marching world, however schools that do not conform to the contemporary style for whatever reason shouldn’t be expected to. Just don’t go to BOA. UIL will recognize a military program if they perform at a high level.

[Nebp]

Someone really dislikes BOA. I for one have no problem with either BOA or UIL. I do believe that UIL judging tends to be a little more inconsistent. I do also agree that there is a large disparity between bands mostly based on money. It is a harsh fact that not every school or district has or can raise the funds necessary to produce, equip, travel, ect for a BOA circuit. That being said we also should not punish those that can and do. I feel sometimes certain individuals in UIL feel it is their duty to make that a point.

[TWHSParent]

I'll add that looking at BOA only through the optics of Texas is a major mistake. Outside of Texas, A and AA bands thrive in BOA contests. If you check contests outside Texas, you'll see several AA and some A bands in finals at multiple regionals. Only a couple AA bands make GN finals, but several make semi-finals on score. It isn't just socio-economics - many of the successful A and AA programs outside of Texas are completely comparable to the programs in Texas in that area. It is about focus. There is nothing wrong with focusing on UIL and making that your goal. If a top A or AA program in Texas decided to focus on BOA, and started putting out programs designed to be successful they would do well, and would make some regional finals. The challenge in Texas isn't BOA vs. UIL, it is the fact that Texas has so many strong AAA and AAAA programs that the smaller schools actually can't compete in Finals. BOA loves Texas for the large bands (I bet there are more AAAA bands in Texas than the rest of the BOA circuit combined, but I haven't actually checked). That said, they would also love for a smaller school from Texas to become a strong competitor in the smaller classes.

 

So basically if a band in Texas focuses on UIL, that is great for them. If a band focuses on BOA, that is also great for them. That is a program choice. The exposure level between the 2 is dramatically different, as BOA gives a national audience vs. a regional audience for UIL. All state circuits have that issue vs BOA.

 

I think I'll mostly leave the corp vs military style alone, with one comment - BOA is a national circuit, and outside of Texas there are essentially 0 military style programs, so there should be zero expectations that BOA will cater to anything military style.

[Jeffrey L. Gorman]

  On 11/2/2018 at 2:45 PM, Nebp said:

Someone really dislikes BOA. I for one have no problem with either BOA or UIL. I do believe that UIL judging tends to be a little more inconsistent. I do also agree that there is a large disparity between bands mostly based on money. It is a harsh fact that not every school or district has or can raise the funds necessary to produce, equip, travel, ect for a BOA circuit. That being said we also should not punish those that can and do. I feel sometimes certain individuals in UIL feel it is their duty to make that a point.

Actually I do not dislike BOA. I have supported Texas Bands in this contest even when sometmes we have one hand tied behind our Back(IE the 8 Hour Rule) (Schools like Plymouth Canton that are basically 4 schools on one campus) and several other situations that are not favorable to  our Bands.

 

My problem is that disagreements come along every other year when UIL 6A Marching Contest is within days of BOA Grand Nationals. This places Texas Bands at a disadvantage having to do shows with two different length of shows and different show values. We are also at a disadvantage in that we have to travel longer.  How many folks realized that Broken Arrow hosted and won the OBA 6A Marching Contest on the 20th and then drove to St. Louis and competed in BOA. Winning both events. That is not possible for most of us. I really think that we do outstanding music in the circumstances we are in.     My complaint is that I have watched what happened in Oklahoma when the OBA talked the OSSAA into making BOA scoring the standard in marching contests at the State level.

 

In OK at the time this was adapted they had 17 Class 6A High School, of which only Broken Arrow, Owasso and Union were in the caliber of Texas Bands. Since that time the enrollments have changed so that there are now 32 6A schools and most of us have heard of Jenks, Mustang, Bixby and Edmond. They got better.   6A enrollment is 1,270 and above. Broken Arrow has 4,200 students.

 

However while class 5A stayed the same, the number of Bands in Class A-AAAA entering the State Marching contest has dropped greatly. Most of these schools approximately 300 of them have enrollments less than 300 students and most of them have opted to do the OSSAA Region Marching Contest (same as our regionals)    Attendance at the OBA A-AAAA Marching Championships has fallen due to the Bands inability to change over from Regional Contest with a Ratings system to a State Contest with a Ranking system.

 

I think it is great that we have Bands going to Grand Nationals, however on the years when 6A Marching Contest is held(funny the 5A Folks are a lot less hyper about the differences than 6A Bands are), maybe we can agree to disagree

I would like to see folks from the small schools see the difference between Reagan and CTJ. I also would love to see the members of our Big School Bands spend some time watching what our small schools do with far less assets and resources. They also are a lot less Hyper at SMC than the bigger folks(I think that come from being in more rural areas)

[California Boi]

  On 11/2/2018 at 2:45 PM, Nebp said:

Someone really dislikes BOA. I for one have no problem with either BOA or UIL. I do believe that UIL judging tends to be a little more inconsistent. I do also agree that there is a large disparity between bands mostly based on money. It is a harsh fact that not every school or district has or can raise the funds necessary to produce, equip, travel, ect for a BOA circuit. That being said we also should not punish those that can and do. I feel sometimes certain individuals in UIL feel it is their duty to make that a point.

BOA definitely isn’t for everyone. The idea that BOA is morphing into DCI isn’t completely true, but it also isn’t conpletey wrong. I choose to look at it a different way; BOA and it’s GE caption constantly requires band to innovate. You could in theory win UIL multiple times with the same style and design of shows, as seen by Marcus seeeping State for the longest time (not a knock on them, their shows were fantastic, just very similar). BOA favors bands that go out of the box, such as Broken arrow and CTJ, constantly finding new ways to perform and do it at a high level. This causes the activity to get better as a whole, as we’ve seen with the drastic growth in the level of bands in Texas going into BOA SA, as it forces bands to go out of the comfort zone and make their own mark on the activity.

 

Whether this is preferable to UIL’s demand of execution is up to opinion, but many bands with band directors who hail from the world of DCI prefer BOA for that reason.

[1998-2018]

How did this descend into the endless BOA versus UIL debate once again? The question was about UIL judging.

 

To rephrase it a bit more politely, "Can, and should, UIL Judging be improved?"

 

This is not a complicated question. The answer is painfully obvious to even the casual observer. YES!

 

What needs to improve isn't all that difficult to identify either. Begin with the end in mind and then start addressing the basic root causes. The current judging guidelines are far to vague and the selection of who can be a judge, and at what level, is not nearly strict enough. BOA and DCI have nothing to do with this.

 

(It shouldn't be a surprise that someone with an engineering background understands and identified this earlier in the thread.)

 

Everyone is unhappy about inconsistent scores/rankings. Fix it!

 

Marching styles, school sizes, budgets, et cetera, are all distant secondary issues. It's true they are much more complicated and contentious issues but the biggest reason for that is people are continuing to defend preferences and turf with arguments fueled by confirmation bias. Correlation is not causation. The head of UIL Judging is trying to address these issues too by having a healthy, honest, and compassionate discussion dealing in reality and empirical evidence. Not emotion. We should do the same.

 

But put first things first. Improve consistency (consensus) and reduce deviation. Do that and even Freshman parents who know they don't have a clue about how judging works will feel confident that at least the judges do.

[TxDragonDad]

@1998-2018 spot on!

This is not a complicated question. The answer is painfully obvious to even the casual observer. YES!

 

What needs to improve isn't all that difficult to identify either. Begin with the end in mind and then start addressing the basic root causes. The current judging guidelines are far to vague and the selection of who can be a judge, and at what level, is not nearly strict enough. BOA and DCI have nothing to do with this.

[1998-2018]

Probably the best idea, and easiest to implement, to come out of the 6A State conversation/thread is to use a 9 Judge panel split into 5 Music Judges and 4 Marching Judges. Then eliminate the high and low from both categories leaving the original 3/2 format and 60%/40% music emphasis.

 

The additional cost should be easy to cover with a small increase in spectator ticket price and/or entrance fee paid by competing bands. UIL ticket prices a much lower than other circuits.

 

At first glance this solution appears to require many more qualified Judges. However, some have said the large deviations in scores/rankings are only an issue in the large school classifications. If this is supported by emperical evidence, rather than anecdotal, then the additional Judges/cost may only be necessary in those classifications. It also seems unlikely to be needed at the region level as Division I versus Division II ratings don't seem to be generating meaningful controversy. If the 9 Judge panel was limited to 5A and 6A Area competitions and the entire SMBC, regardless of classification, the cost and demand for additional Judges should be manageable.

 

That would leave better instructions/guidelines regarding Judging criteria. Once again this does not need to descend into war over the differences between UIL and BOA or DCI. At this point UIL would be well served by at least clarifying what it means or wants under the current criteria even if it didn't make additional, and long overdue, changes to modernize the existing criteria. Start by clearly explaining them. No consensus in current Judging or meaningful debate regarding the future of Marching Arts in Texas can happen without universal understanding of where we are now.

[wheels]

I heard last weekend in San Antonio that 2 judges from area I were fired or asked not to return. This is the area that Katy and Jersey Village placed 1st and 2nd over Cy-Fair, JET, & 7Lakes.  Anyone know if this is fact or fiction and if so what were the reasons ?

[makebeats]

  On 11/9/2018 at 5:37 PM, wheels said:

I heard last weekend in San Antonio that 2 judges from area I were fired or asked not to return. This is the area that Katy and Jersey Village placed 1st and 2nd over Cy-Fair, JET, & 7Lakes.  Anyone know if this is fact or fiction and if so what were the reasons ?

the results of State 6A seem to show that Cy-Fair and Seven Lakes were far superior to Katy and Jersey Village...

UIL needs better judges at all levels, but the judges at state seem to be more competent than the area judges, and State proved.

[Bandwoww]

  On 11/11/2018 at 8:51 PM, makebeats said:

the results of State 6A seem to show that Cy-Fair and Seven Lakes were far superior to Katy and Jersey Village...

UIL needs better judges at all levels, but the judges at state seem to be more competent than the area judges, and State proved.

Yeah a lot of the weird things at Area just weren’t there at the state level. Leander did significantly better than Westlake, Keller was better than Waxahachie by a decent margin in both prelims and finals. Also Duncanville placed 29th in prelims, so I can’t imagine that Timber Creek would’ve been that low had they advanced. Bowie didn’t beat CTJ either, as Area results would suggest.

[1998-2018]

But somehow there are still plenty of people on here who have made it clear they like UIL the way it is and nothing needs to be fixed or changed. I'm just thankful my daughter is moving on to Winter Gaurd and then DCI.

[TxDragonDad]

Form what I can tell - 

Most people who like UIL like de-emphasis on General Effect (GE), like local (Texas) named champion

People who want to change UIL fall into two categories: 
1) Those who want simple outlier scoring reform
2) Those who want to add GE-elements to the scoring rubrics for UIL

 

So, really there are two UNRELATED topics:

1) Improvements to deal with outlier scoring problems

2) Add GE vs Music/Marching (pure execution) rubric

 

Changing a rubric is a major task and creates issues when comparing results pre and post change.   

 

Fixing a scoring risk/inequity/issue within the current paradigm is a minor task and should be considered separately and own its own need/merit.

[TxDragonDad]

BTW - if you hadn't yet, read through the last few pages on this State 6a thread where we discuss the Judge 5 and Round Rock scores.    It all starts this year around page 38   I posted an mathematical analysis later in the thread showing that one judge was way out of line and unfortunately cost a band a ticket to finals.

[TWHSParent]

Are the judges putting forth an ordinal or a raw score, and the ordinal is applied at tabulation? Do the judges even know what the ordinals are before the final sheet comes out?

[1998-2018]

Raw scores are converted. A competent judges knows how he ranked the bands. Well, at least the bands he intends to advance to Finals and the bubble bands. How many more they could list in order, from memory, will depend on the size of the contest. Also different organizations/competitions collect scoresheets at different times. (After each band, after the block, et cetera.) This can either help or hinder the ranking of bands.