BOA shows vs UIL shows

[ChristopherRoden]

Certain bands have UIL based shows and others have BOA type shows. A lot of bands will be competing in the BOA San Antonio Super Regional and then later this week compete in the 6A state competition. Will the style of their show cause them to place more favorably at one or the other contest?

[Magma31651]

  On 11/1/2018 at 5:52 PM, ChristopherRoden said:

 

Certain bands have UIL based shows and others have BOA type shows. A lot of bands will be competing in the BOA San Antonio Super Regional and then later this week compete in the 6A state competition. Will the style of their show cause them to place more favorably at one or the other contest?

yes

[FloMoParent]

  On 11/1/2018 at 5:52 PM, ChristopherRoden said:

Certain bands have UIL based shows and others have BOA type shows. A lot of bands will be competing in the BOA San Antonio Super Regional and then later this week compete in the 6A state competition. Will the style of their show cause them to place more favorably at one or the other contest?

I know of a few bands that have BOA shows that are designed to do well in UIL

[Fwguard17]

Agreed.  It is not at all uncommon for groups to do very well at both BOA and UIL.  2016 Flomo won gold at both, 2014 CTJ won BOA and bronze at UIL, 2012 Marcus won both, 2010 Marcus won both.

[Nny14]

  On 11/1/2018 at 7:57 PM, Fwguard17 said:

Agreed. It is not at all uncommon for groups to do very well at both BOA and UIL. 2016 Flomo won gold at both, 2014 CTJ won BOA and bronze at UIL, 2012 Marcus won both, 2010 Marcus won both.

Clearly there's some secret the town of Flower Mound has that the rest of Texas doesn't...

[natertater21000]

  On 11/1/2018 at 8:19 PM, Nny14 said:

 

Clearly there's some secret the town of Flower Mound has that the rest of Texas doesn't...

I think it has to do with how they achieve their general effect. Ctj uses explosive excitement and speed to gain effect while marcus and flower Mound gain it through absurd levels of clarity. All three have top notch visual designs. The GE through clarity just carries over more to uil where clarity in its own right is all that matters. For instance the music effect of Marcus 12 (at least for me) doesn't come from the music being exciting in and of itself, but from how stupidly clean it is.

[1998-2018]

Show design certainly plays a role but don't overlook variations in the quality of four different runs made by each band. That can make a huge difference too.

[1998-2018]

The biggest week in Texas Marching Arts has ended with the same answer we always get to this question. The Finalist are the same but the placements tell the usual story.

 

BOA expects a high level of execution. They also reward difficulty and innovation moving the Marching Arts forward.

 

UIL expects flawless execution at the expense of difficulty and innovation. Don't attempt anything that challenges your band to the point that it might even slightly compromise execution.

 

Please put away the pitchforks and torches. I loved all the Finalist. This is not a disparaging remark about any band or bands. My comment is about the Judging Criteria at BOA and UIL. I simply answered the original question based on the final placements of the same bands at both contests because the results illiterate and reinforce a long-term trend highlighting the difference between BOA and UIL.

[whitewing09]

I am hesitant to say that BOA rewards innovation because that's a relatively vague statement that I think is hard to really pin down. Innovation can mean so many different things. What I will say, is that BOA rewards risk-taking, which inevitability means that the system rewards difficulty and achievement. 

 

I would argue that Carmel and Avon did not really off anything really innovative musically.  They had seemingly very standard repertoires for top bands. However, they take a lot of risks with their musical books. Carmel had a lot of moments of brass exposure that had the potential to sound awful if not performed with finesse. They execute those moments so well, that it's easy to say, oh they're not doing anything particularly difficult.

 

I think the difference between BOA and UIL is becoming difficult to assess as bands begin to cater to both, but I'd say the relative placement of the top half bands at BOA SA vs 6 state kind of lends clues. Let's take Hebron and Vista Ridge this year. Hebron takes A LOT of risk musically with their highly technical show, while Vista Ridge consistently delivers a high level of execution. Hebron was rewarded for their risks at BOA SA where they beat Vista Ridge by a full .725 in the music performance caption in finals. This is a HUGE margin for one caption. In both UIL state prelims and finals, two of the three music judges had Vista over Hebron. Both bands still ended up in the top half, but were definitely rewarded differently at the two contests. 

[1998-2018]

I have no doubt Hebron can play and march the Vista Ridge show at or above the level VR did. Do you believe Vista Ridge can play and march the Hebron show at or above the level Hebron did?

 

BOA results seem to agree with me while UIL doesn't seem to care.

 

(Please remember I already said I loved the VR show and their improvement from last year may be unprecedented at this level. I'm just talking about the difference in Judging Criteria.)

[Samuel Culper]

What an insulting example to use.

[LostChoirGuy]

The difference is that Hebron DIDNT play VR'S show and they didnt do theirs as well as VR. We can talk all day about who /could/ have executed better, but I think it is wrong to make assumptions. We can only go off of the performances that they gave.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/12/2018 at 5:01 AM, LostChoirGuy said:

The difference is that Hebron DIDNT play VR'S show and they didnt do theirs as well as VR. We can talk all day about who /could/ have executed better, but I think it is wrong to make assumptions. We can only go off of the performances that they gave.

Good point. I’m also curious how many of the Texas bands could pull off Carmel’s show. Some have said it was a simple show, but I beg to differ. They are just so good that they make it look and sound simple. Same with Avon. That’s what I meant by saying we could learn a lot from these programs.

[1998-2018]

  On 11/12/2018 at 4:55 AM, Samuel Culper said:

What an insulting example to use.

How is it insulting? I said I loved the Vista Ridge show. Do you think BOA insulted them too?

[1998-2018]

  On 11/12/2018 at 5:01 AM, LostChoirGuy said:

The difference is that Hebron DIDNT play VR'S show and they didnt do theirs as well as VR.

Of course, but you still seem to be missing the point.

 

  On 11/12/2018 at 5:01 AM, LostChoirGuy said:

We can only go off of the performances that they gave.

We did, four times each within five days. Maybe you noticed BOA and UIL rewarded them quite differently. That's the first part of my point.

 

  On 11/12/2018 at 5:01 AM, LostChoirGuy said:

The difference is that Hebron DIDNT play VR'S show and they didnt do theirs as well as VR. We can talk all day about who /could/ have executed better, but I think it is wrong to make assumptions. We can only go off of the performances that they gave.

  On 11/12/2018 at 2:36 PM, LeanderMomma said:

Good point. I’m also curious how many of the Texas bands could pull off Carmel’s show. Some have said it was a simple show, but I beg to differ. They are just so good that they make it look and sound simple. Same with Avon. That’s what I meant by saying we could learn a lot from these programs.

Would Carmel and Avon be achieving what they do if they were influenced by the UIL? Or is it significant that they, along with Blue Springs, Broken Arrow, Tarpon Springs and other consistent top programs exist outside Texas.

 

The HornRank Top 30 is clearly dominated by Texas bands so we are doing something correctly. On the other hand, when we get to the end of the year it is rarely a Texas band in the Top spot. That is significant too, both statistically and otherwise. Don't you wonder why and want to know what we, and UIL, could be doing better?

 

Now we come to the second part of my point. BOA rewards Directors for pushing kids to play and march more difficult music and drill at a high level of execution while UIL rewards flawless execution of less complex music and drill. So who is really supporting and advancing the Music and Marching Arts in Texas versus potentially stifling them? Where are these two different reward systems, with their different and conflicting priorities, leading our band programs in the long run?

[LostChoirGuy]

I think that both are doing a fair job of pushing things forward. Vista Ridge's show wasn't exactly your standard run-of the-mill boring show, was it? Hebron may have pushed things forward with their show this year but I think Vista Ridge was also a part of that movement. I appreciate that BOA rewards for difficulty, but to suggest that Hebron is more deserving of a state title because they could have done as well at VR's show completely takes out a huge factor of UIL that I think is what makes it great. I will do my best to explain it but it may not come out well:

 

When a show reaches near perfection, there are elements that lock together and mold in to one another in such perfect harmony that true art is created. This is what happened over the San Antonio weekend for Vista Ridge. You could see with each performance that their execution of elements along with their overall performance became so great that it drew the audience in and they were able to generate huge impact. Each performance was better than the previous. Hebron's show was so intensely difficult that it blew your mind and certainly was worthy of huge music scores, but didnt have those impacts because the music that was performed wasnt quite at the right level of perfection for things to lock in to that extra special place. Vista Ridge was rewarded for finding a show that perfectly matched the ability of their band to find that sweet spot and to connect with the audience. I like UIL because it rewards bands that through amazing direction are able to take their bands to the edge of their abilities without going too far and losing the pristine cleanliness of music and visual.

[CTJBandPops]

I am usually in for a good argument - but even I am going to sit this one out -  have a great day 

[1998-2018]

  On 11/15/2018 at 5:06 AM, banddad84 said:

I am usually in for a good argument - but even I am going to sit this one out -  have a great day 

That made me laugh and I haven't even read what LostChoirGuy said yet.

[1998-2018]

I didn't say Hebron should be 6A State Champion. To be perfectly clear, I wouldn't have given it to them. I simply used them to illustrate a difference. Vista Ridge was magnificent. Their Director made masterful choices to maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of the band and UIL rewarded them. The solos were exquisite all four performances. But for me the ensemble and drill appeal faded with each performance. It was still exceptionally executed. However, it became like the joke about jazz, "You have to listen for the notes they're not playing." But somehow in reverse. I hope that makes sense even though I know it probably doesn't. Maybe a better way to say it is that by the fourth performance I was extremely aware of what they weren't doing that other bands were. Like knowing how the magician creates the illusion. In comparison, there were several bands that each performance increased my appreciation and the magic deepened.

 

Unlike you, I was there and saw all the top bands from both high angle and low angle centered seating which can really impact impressions. We've talked before about the problems of video. But I'm willing to admit this is probably more of a philosophical difference of opinion.

 

I wasn't surprised Vista Ridge was the 6A State Champion, just like I wasn't surprised they didn't win the Super Regional. There was nothing common about what Vista Ridge did. But that may be largely because of the influence of BOA. I can remember when UIL was a race to perfection of the lowest common denominator. I'm just concerned they are still on that slippery slope.

 

And if everything you said is true and what should really matter, why did BOA have them in 4th?

 

Like I said, it's more of a philosophical difference and a question of where it leads in the long-term.

[TrebleMaker2]

All the opinions expressed have their merits. As a retired music teacher and adjudicator who follows Texas bands, may I weigh in? I don’t adjudicate marching although I understand and appreciate it, but I do adjudicate music in another area. The elements that must be in place are flawless intonation, dynamic rise and fall of phrases, proper attacks and releases, and of course basics like balance and blend. The music should connect with the intended audience on some emotional level. The group should transition flawlessly through meter changes. Music difficulty is not just based on how fast or high a passage is, but whether there are difficult leaps in the brass to lock in, whether throat tones in the clarinets are in tune, etc. Vista Ridge had that package locked down. Did you notice the mixed meters they used? Makes marching a bit trickier, and they did it so flawlessly that I didn’t catch it the first time I saw them. Did they connect with the audience? Most definitely. If you saw them in person, did you notice how their facial expressions and body movements mirrored the music? Also they used minimal props and used them well; that appealed to me (although I did love some of the cool props used by other bands as well). That was showmanship at the highest level. I can’t wait to see what they bring next year.

 

That said, wow! What amazing performances from so many-Flower Mound, Ronald Reagan, Leander, Vandegrift, Hebron-more than I can even mention-Texas bands are fierce and fine! It is a joy to be able to immerse myself in the Texas band culture in the fall because I truly believe it is the strongest in the country. I think judging any marching festival would be extremely difficult given the diversity in show concepts and drill. Glad I don’t have to, but I can sit in the stands and appreciate the efforts of each group. I love BOA and have been to Indy, St. Louis, and Atlanta when it was still there. I enjoyed seeing what each area of the country brings to the field. Most of all I love seeing kids work so selflessly together to bring their best, to grow as musicians and people, and to entertain and awe us with their accomplishments.

[whitewing09]

  On 11/12/2018 at 4:35 AM, 1998-2018 said:

I have no doubt Hebron can play and march the Vista Ridge show at or above the level VR did. Do you believe Vista Ridge can play and march the Hebron show at or above the level Hebron did?

 

BOA results seem to agree with me while UIL doesn't seem to care.

 

(Please remember I already said I loved the VR show and their improvement from last year may be unprecedented at this level. I'm just talking about the difference in Judging Criteria.)

 

Not sure if you were trying to contradict anything I said, but I don't think you did. I, frankly, don't know if Hebron could elicit the same response that VR did when I saw that in the stands at San Antonio twice. Just like I don't know how well VR could execute Hebron's show. They are two very different bands that play very differently. We could sit around in pontificate whether one band could play another bands show or if one band can execute like another, but it really it won't yield any meaningful insight.

[Samuel Culper]

  On 11/15/2018 at 6:21 PM, whitewing09 said:

Not sure if you were trying to contradict anything I said, but I don't think you did. I, frankly, don't know if Hebron could elicit the same response that VR did when I saw that in the stands at San Antonio twice. Just like I don't know how well VR could execute Hebron's show. They are two very different bands that play very differently. We could sit around in pontificate whether one band could play another bands show or if one band can execute like another, but it really it won't yield any meaningful insight.

I think his point was that VR picked the one show that it could execute to a very high level, any other top band could have done the same with that show, but VR would have been lost trying to do something harder.

 

At least, that's how it came across.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/15/2018 at 2:33 PM, TrebleMaker2 said:

All the opinions expressed have their merits. As a retired music teacher and adjudicator who follows Texas bands, may I weigh in? I don’t adjudicate marching although I understand and appreciate it, but I do adjudicate music in another area. The elements that must be in place are flawless intonation, dynamic rise and fall of phrases, proper attacks and releases, and of course basics like balance and blend. The music should connect with the intended audience on some emotional level. The group should transition flawlessly through meter changes. Music difficulty is not just based on how fast or high a passage is, but whether there are difficult leaps in the brass to lock in, whether throat tones in the clarinets are in tune, etc. Vista Ridge had that package locked down. Did you notice the mixed meters they used? Makes marching a bit trickier, and they did it so flawlessly that I didn’t catch it the first time I saw them. Did they connect with the audience? Most definitely. If you saw them in person, did you notice how their facial expressions and body movements mirrored the music? Also they used minimal props and used them well; that appealed to me (although I did love some of the cool props used by other bands as well). That was showmanship at the highest level. I can’t wait to see what they bring next year.

 

That said, wow! What amazing performances from so many-Flower Mound, Ronald Reagan, Leander, Vandegrift, Hebron-more than I can even mention-Texas bands are fierce and fine! It is a joy to be able to immerse myself in the Texas band culture in the fall because I truly believe it is the strongest in the country. I think judging any marching festival would be extremely difficult given the diversity in show concepts and drill. Glad I don’t have to, but I can sit in the stands and appreciate the efforts of each group. I love BOA and have been to Indy, St. Louis, and Atlanta when it was still there. I enjoyed seeing what each area of the country brings to the field. Most of all I love seeing kids work so selflessly together to bring their best, to grow as musicians and people, and to entertain and awe us with their accomplishments.

Your comments are very much appreciated here, especially given your expertise. Thank you!

[1998-2018]

  On 11/15/2018 at 6:52 PM, Samuel Culper said:

I think his point was that VR picked the one show that it could execute to a very high level, any other top band could have done the same with that show...

Exactly. The same or better from bands placing about 8 or 9 up (maybe more) at either competition. I see that as the downside of UIL Judging Criteria, they encourage playing it safe.

 

  On 11/15/2018 at 6:52 PM, Samuel Culper said:

...but VR would have been lost trying to do something harder.

Well, lost is a bit harsh and wouldn't be my choice of words to describe such a great band but you're on the right page. Let's say they would have been more challenged by the music and drill in the shows from the other bands placing about 8 or 9 and up at either competition. Vista Ridge probably would have experienced the same struggles, or more, that those bands did. I like how BOA rewards the attempt to fly. You can't break a wing, but if the music and drill are difficult enough you can lose a feather or two and still win. That's how progress is made.

 

Reminder: This thread and the points I'm making are meant to illustrate the difference between UIL and BOA. That was the original question. I'm not interested in, or trying to debate who should have won the 6A SMBC. Vista Ridge executed a virtually flawless plan and performance. That's what UIL expects.

[LostChoirGuy]

I think you could say VR was "lost" even with the show choice they ended up with this year. But that's ok- they still "found" their way to the top of the podium.