San Antonio Vs. Grand Nationals

[Somethingbandrelated]

Just wanted to make a thread so we can consolidate our thoughts regarding this ongoing conversation.

[LKendrick]

I think it needs to stop being viewed as a competition about which is better first of all.

[CTJBandPops]

I don't think it is a discussion about which one is better, as most would agree that Texas has more depth of talent - but more of a discussion on how do we make it more representative of the marching arts talent across the country and seeing some true head to head competition of the best programs

[Somethingbandrelated]

  On 11/11/2018 at 11:13 PM, LKendrick said:

 

I think it needs to stop being viewed as a competition about which is better first of all.

I didn’t say that. There are definitely comparisons to be made.

[Samuel Culper]

  On 11/11/2018 at 11:13 PM, LKendrick said:

I think it needs to stop being viewed as a competition about which is better first of all.

Because it's not really a competition.

[MadisonBandMan1]

I see what the op is trying to get across, so maybe they could have phrased the title of the thread a little better. Try “Ways to make Grand Nationals Better.”

[LeanderMomma]

I think we need to approach this topic with a little less Texas pride and a bit more respect for the top programs in the country. While I’m still confused as to why Blue Springs, Tarpon Springs or Broken Arrow didn’t win last night, I have to recognize that the top two bands obviously have reached a pinnacle that few Texas bands can say they’ve reached. There’s a reason Carmel and Avon took first and second, and we need to focus more on what those reasons are and spend less time posturing and saying how great we are. Don’t get me wrong...WE ARE GREAT! But we have not yet reached that level of profoundly superb quality marching and playing that Carmel and Avon simply have oozing out of their pores. Not to mention how insanely talented their guards are. Now I do think we are catching up. And I do think Texas brings something different and equally profound to the table. But we need to not let arrogance keep us from learning from the very best.

 

One more point and then I’ll hush. While I definitely think we can learn a lot from the top bands in the Grand Nationals arena, I also think Texas makes the mistake every time they take a band to nationals, of trying to appeal to the Indy audience. I think we tone down our Texas style shows a bit in fear of not placing well with the Indiana judges. Historically, the shows Texas has taken to GN have not been our very best shows. Yes there have been exceptions, like LD Bell in 2007, TWHS in 2013 and Hebron, who should have won in 2015. But for the most part, we don’t take our phenomenal shows to Indy. Like FloMo in 2016. Or CTJ 2017. Those types of shows are what we need to show the Indy fans. Let’s stop trying to please Indy judges, learn what we can from the very best, put our Texas swagger to work, and take some winning shows to Grand Nats in the coming years! In fact, 2019 would be a fine place to start.

[vbassoon]

Flomo 16 and CTJ 17 would have won grand nats. We already reached that level in my opinion. 

 

Also Prosper making Grand nat finals and not state finals goes to show how good we are at our craft.

There's nothing really like Texas marching band.

[LKendrick]

  On 11/11/2018 at 11:52 PM, Somethingbandrelated said:

I didn’t say that. There are definitely comparisons to be made.

 

My apologies, didn't mean to imply you made it a competition, it just usually devolves into that, especially on other forums. 

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/12/2018 at 12:39 AM, luhsdm said:

Flomo 16 and CTJ 17 would have won grand nats. We already reached that level in my opinion.

I agree. So let’s take those types of shows to Grand Nats.

[Bandwoww]

I think Texas bands try too hard when they bring a show to GN. They really aren’t toning anything down. I actually think they are doing the opposite. They try to put out super competitive visual design (FloMo 16) and try compete with bands like Avon and Carmel. In reality, it hurts the rest of the show especially in execution. Texas bands need to play to their strengths when they go to Indy and not necessarily try to one-up Indy bands in design, because that probably won’t happen.

[LeanderMomma]

  On 11/12/2018 at 2:14 AM, Bandwoww said:

I think Texas bands try too hard when they bring a show to GN. They really aren’t toning anything down. I actually think they are doing the opposite. They try to put out super competitive visual design (FloMo 16) and try compete with bands like Avon and Carmel. In reality, it hurts the rest of the show especially in execution. Texas bands need to play to their strengths when they go to Indy and not necessarily try to one-up Indy bands in design, because that probably won’t happen.

Good point.

[AvonDad]

Texas needs to be themselves when the go to GN with no apologies.  Lucas Oil needs some excitement and part the audience's hair with that pure sound.  Prosper was making itself known to the couple of guys in front of me last night who couldn't believe what they were hearing.  They were all smiles and wows during that performance.  Our local comps were somewhat tame this year as it seems that's what getting the numbers. 

[Bandwoww]

Prosper was seriously so good. They definitely deserved the highest music score in the bottom half!

[natertater21000]

Most Texas bands that attend grand nationals make the same mistake that every drum Corp in recent years (except the blue devils) make the year following a championship. They just try to do too much. They look at their winning formula and say let's turn this up to 11.the only issue is they didn't need to. Flower mound could have easily won in 2017 but the show asked too much of the marchers and you could hear it. They sound tired at the end of that show. I mean I sure would be after marching around with a giant colored tile on my head playing FFF for a majority of the show. I whole heartedly believe that if a Texas school designed a show to win/medal at SA but just with 10% more difficulty(the amount that could actually be cleaned in that last week/week and a half) they would dominate grand nats. I think Hebron, reagan, and flomo this year were perfect examples of this. They both had designs that weren't too over the top and had just enough dirt left at San Antonio to polish up and gain that last point by nats.

[justabandkid94]

  On 11/12/2018 at 3:59 AM, natertater21000 said:

Most Texas bands that attend grand nationals make the same mistake that every drum Corp in recent years (except the blue devils) make the year following a championship. They just try to do too much. They look at their winning formula and say let's turn this up to 11.the only issue is they didn't need to. Flower mound could have easily won in 2017 but the show asked too much of the marchers and you could hear it. They sound tired at the end of that show. I mean I sure would be after marching around with a giant colored tile on my head playing FFF for a majority of the show. I whole heartedly believe that if a Texas school designed a show to win/medal at SA but just with 10% more difficulty(the amount that could actually be cleaned in that last week/week and a half) they would dominate grand nats. I think Hebron, reagan, and flomo this year were perfect examples of this. They both had designs that weren't too over the top and had just enough dirt left at San Antonio to polish up and gain that last point by nats.

Dead on the nail here.

 

The Woodlands faced this same struggle each GN trip post-2006 until they finally mastered it in 2013.

[Majellan]

Yes some Texas pride here, but also more opportunities for American Forks, Ayala, some of the WBA bands out there to participate in finals.  Where my Texas pride comes is that I think we'll beat all of them:)  But I also love to see a Clovis, NM band or Bentonville, Ark step into the picture and I do have respect for Indiana bands and other midwest programs.  They aren't heads and tails above the rest though, many years they aren't the best program out there.  My theme since finals ended has just been keep in mind the effect of travel.  Avon got 4th at San Antonio last year but moved up at Nationals.  They did have a great show and no one was going to beat CTJ and Hebron last year, but Avon probably lost a spot because of the travel.

 

So Texas bands go to Indy and yes they over do their attempts, but they also just got through sleeping on a bus for 18 hours.  It has an effect, one that Midwest bands should have to endure as well.

 

Hince, the rotation of grand nationals idea.

 

Also, one of the two  is a tourist town for something other than racing.  San Antonio wins that hands down for fun outside of the contest.

[LostChoirGuy]

One of the complaints has been that other venues can't hold a competition of the size of grand nats. Well, San Antonio SR this year was almost as big, and I think it was pretty successful. Also, I would almost suggest that grand nats doesnt need to be as big as it is and shouldnt have as many lower caliber participants. Thats what regionals and super regionals are for. Call me an elitist, but I think GNats should have some sort of requirement (like a top-third finish at a super regional in the past 3 years) or something. That way it does actually feel like a national championship and not just a glorified Indy regional.

[meursault]

  On 11/12/2018 at 5:06 AM, LostChoirGuy said:

One of the complaints has been that other venues can't hold a competition of the size of grand nats. Well, San Antonio SR this year was almost as big, and I think it was pretty successful. Also, I would almost suggest that grand nats doesnt need to be as big as it is and shouldnt have as many lower caliber participants. Thats what regionals and super regionals are for. Call me an elitist, but I think GNats should have some sort of requirement (like a top-third finish at a super regional in the past 3 years) or something. That way it does actually feel like a national championship and not just a glorified Indy regional.

 

That's true, but at the end of the day, BOA and Music For All are about music education first and competition second. Going to Grand Nats is a HUGE draw for a lot of smaller programs and attending such a huge, prestigious event can be amazing for the growth of any organization. I don't necessarily disagree with you, that maybe having a more UIL entry system to Grand Nats could help, but eh. I don't mind it having smaller programs attend because of the gain they get from it.

 

I personally think that Grand Nats should rotate around a couple stadiums that could handle it - primarily the Super Regional stadiums. Lucas Oil and Alamodome could handle it for sure - not sure about the other venues. Obviously MFA will prioritize Indy because of where they're located, and because of the DCI influence, but I honestly don't see many downsides (the organizational side non-withstanding).

 

Edit: I hopped on to the conversation a little late and I think someone mentioned the rotation already - love that others agree

[Somethingbandrelated]

  On 11/12/2018 at 3:59 AM, natertater21000 said:

 

Most Texas bands that attend grand nationals make the same mistake that every drum Corp in recent years (except the blue devils) make the year following a championship. They just try to do too much. They look at their winning formula and say let's turn this up to 11.the only issue is they didn't need to. Flower mound could have easily won in 2017 but the show asked too much of the marchers and you could hear it. They sound tired at the end of that show. I mean I sure would be after marching around with a giant colored tile on my head playing FFF for a majority of the show. I whole heartedly believe that if a Texas school designed a show to win/medal at SA but just with 10% more difficulty(the amount that could actually be cleaned in that last week/week and a half) they would dominate grand nats. I think Hebron, reagan, and flomo this year were perfect examples of this. They both had designs that weren't too over the top and had just enough dirt left at San Antonio to polish up and gain that last point by nats.

Lol. I marched that show, it wasnt that we were tired. Our underclassmen were just really bad.

[principalagent]

Texas’s big problem is that the top four bands right now are between somewhat and really inconsistent, and that inconsistency shows up primarily on Grand National years. I also tend to believe that’s because of show design that just doesn’t work. The top 10 or so bands are all good enough that making finals at Lucas Oil isn’t a question - good show or bad show, easy year or hard year. The problem is that for a variety of reasons, the four bands at the obvious top right now that have the highest chance of winning GN (let’s just say Hebron, Flower Mound, Johnson and Reagan, with LISD-South and The Woodlands right behind) can’t find the same juice in Indy (Hebron excepted obviously on this one point). I think points like travel or UIL week have salience, but it isn’t the whole story. I think Texas bands don’t, to take a line from sorority girls, “throw what you know.” Even what Texas bands brought in a UIL year this year, which is supposed to be stale, would have complicated Indy dramatically. More of that, less of the Indy flops.

 

Now my personal belief is that band is just getting better and better in Texas and band almost everywhere else in the country is stagnant at best. It’s probably a matter of time until even a slightly mediocre band can walk into St. Louis or Indy Super finals. Or bands in the 20s at SA slipping into GN finals on weak years unattended by Texas bands. (Prosper was 7th in semis!!! I honestly think every band through Seven Lakes had a chance—and a GOOD one.) Likewise, I do think that eventually the tippy-top echelon isn’t all that far from making it so that each one could just win GN without really thinking about it much, and the next four or five bands after them could win with a particularly good show. The year over year growth of Texas bands is a rising tide that lifts all boats, and sooner or later bands across the country won’t really be able to deal with it anymore. Even Carmel and Avon and BA.

[AvonDad]

  On 11/12/2018 at 4:32 AM, Majellan said:

Yes some Texas pride here, but also more opportunities for American Forks, Ayala, some of the WBA bands out there to participate in finals.  Where my Texas pride comes is that I think we'll beat all of them:)  But I also love to see a Clovis, NM band or Bentonville, Ark step into the picture and I do have respect for Indiana bands and other midwest programs.  They aren't heads and tails above the rest though, many years they aren't the best program out there.  My theme since finals ended has just been keep in mind the effect of travel.  Avon got 4th at San Antonio last year but moved up at Nationals.  They did have a great show and no one was going to beat CTJ and Hebron last year, but Avon probably lost a spot because of the travel.

 

So Texas bands go to Indy and yes they over do their attempts, but they also just got through sleeping on a bus for 18 hours.  It has an effect, one that Midwest bands should have to endure as well.

 

Hince, the rotation of grand nationals idea.

 

Also, one of the two  is a tourist town for something other than racing.  San Antonio wins that hands down for fun outside of the contest.

Talking about travel last year, I'm not sure if that really effected our kids that much.  They had been in TX for a couple of days in the heat to get somewhat use to it, but were lucky to get 4th due to the extreme competition that was there.  A little over a point between 2 and 6 is tight and can go anywhere.  This past Saturday our kids were on the field practicing at 7.30am in 19 degree temps and windchill in single digits before going to semi-finals. Back to practice after that performance before leaving for finals. That's been their norm on weekends.  I know, we don't have the 8 hour rule and didn't get to bed until 3am Sunday, but they are young and can handle it....us old folks not so much.

[CTJBandPops]

  On 11/12/2018 at 9:37 PM, AvonDad said:

Talking about travel last year, I'm not sure if that really effected our kids that much.  They had been in TX for a couple of days in the heat to get somewhat use to it, but were lucky to get 4th due to the extreme competition that was there.  A little over a point between 2 and 6 is tight and can go anywhere.  This past Saturday our kids were on the field practicing at 7.30am in 19 degree temps and windchill in single digits before going to semi-finals. Back to practice after that performance before leaving for finals. That's been their norm on weekends.  I know, we don't have the 8 hour rule and didn't get to bed until 3am Sunday, but hey are young and can handle it....us old folks not so much.

always enjoy your comments - Rock on Avon 

[AvonDad]

  On 11/12/2018 at 9:39 PM, banddad84 said:

always enjoy your comments - Rock on Avon 

Had to laugh.    We have shirts that say "Play on, March on, Rock on, Avon"

[CTJBandPops]

  On 11/12/2018 at 10:56 PM, AvonDad said:

Had to laugh.    We have shirts that say "Play on, March on, Rock on, Avon"

can I order one of those- hope to wear it in Indy next year to cheer on both programs