UIL 5A Area D 2021

[Time Warp]

  On 10/26/2021 at 1:00 AM, trombonemom72 said:

This is so interesting, and something we have discussed at length among our band parent community. We were completely disgusted by the double grand pianos in the CTJ show at TMC (that school is 17% economically disadvantaged) when other schools just can't compete with those bells and whistles (which are inappropriate in a public school setting anyway, IMHO). From props to private lessons and individualized instruction to parents' ability to provide free labor to the bands, this is definitely not a level playing field. 

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I’m not sure what you want these bands to do.

Do you want their parents to stop helping out their children's band program altogether because not everyone has access to parents that can help out?

Do you want these bands to stop providing students with individualized private lessons to students who can afford them?

This post isn’t constructive in any way, it’s just tearing down hand programs with no aim or reason. Your comment about these things being inappropriate in a public school setting confuses me a lot. Texas is known for excessive bells and whistles in many many many aspects of its high school activities regardless of the wealth disparity in the state. Look at these high schools gigantic football stadiums as an example, would you consider these also inappropriate in a public school setting? This comment is really confusing and just feels aimless and non-constructive at all.

Again, what is the point of this post? What are you gaining other than testing programs down? You forget these advantages mean nothing unless programs genuinely put in effort. Look at Lake Travis for example, they’ve been perennially known for being “That Rich School” but their marching success didn’t come until 2018 when they actually genuinely started funelling resources into the band program and upped the motivation in the program. Without hard work and dedication any monetary advantage is largely moot.

Look at Roma, by your very own comments they should not be able to compete with the other bands. After all they are at a rate of 82% of their students living in economically disadvantaged conditions and they still work hard as heck to fundraise, they still work hard as heck to provide the best opportunities for their students and they still succeed. Bands at a monetary disadvantage are not perpetually trapped in the shadows.

[Time Warp]

Also what was the point of raising these issues in this area specifically? Obviously these issues are overarching in the entire country, why are we singling out Area D?

How do you think those Dripping Springs students who come out on Saturdays to learn their dots without being asked to feel when their hard work is simply tossed up to being wealthy? How do you think those Seguin students feel when they see you imply they’ll never be successful because of their economic status?

[Time Warp]

  On 10/26/2021 at 2:32 AM, MarimbaMan said:

I don't think that anyone is doubting the abilities or talents of the kids that compete at these high schools, or the hard work that they put in. Additionally, no one is arguing that wealth is the single determining factor in a band's success. However, wealth certainly plays a role in how these bands are able to operate. By dismissing this disparity, you are neglecting the economic imbalance that impacts the band community. As a current student that competes, I have witnessed this imbalance firsthand.

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Nobody is neglecting wealth as factor. Nobody is dismissing it. The issue comes when you act like others are ignoring it when they make the counterclaim that it doesn’t all chalk up to that.

[Bandmanio]

  On 10/26/2021 at 2:09 AM, LeanderMomma said:

I’m feeling kinda disgusted myself right now knowing that band parents are talking about kids like this. 

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Absolutely agree!

[Bandmanio]

  On 10/26/2021 at 6:40 AM, Time Warp said:

I’m not sure what you want these bands to do.

Do you want their parents to stop helping out their children's band program altogether because not everyone has access to parents that can help out?

Do you want these bands to stop providing students with individualized private lessons to students who can afford them?

This post isn’t constructive in any way, it’s just tearing down hand programs with no aim or reason. Your comment about these things being inappropriate in a public school setting confuses me a lot. Texas is known for excessive bells and whistles in many many many aspects of its high school activities regardless of the wealth disparity in the state. Look at these high schools gigantic football stadiums as an example, would you consider these also inappropriate in a public school setting? This comment is really confusing and just feels aimless and non-constructive at all.

Again, what is the point of this post? What are you gaining other than testing programs down? You forget these advantages mean nothing unless programs genuinely put in effort. Look at Lake Travis for example, they’ve been perennially known for being “That Rich School” but their marching success didn’t come until 2018 when they actually genuinely started funelling resources into the band program and upped the motivation in the program. Without hard work and dedication any monetary advantage is largely moot.

Look at Roma, by your very own comments they should not be able to compete with the other bands. After all they are at a rate of 82% of their students living in economically disadvantaged conditions and they still work hard as heck to fundraise, they still work hard as heck to provide the best opportunities for their students and they still succeed. Bands at a monetary disadvantage are not perpetually trapped in the shadows.

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Perfect response, BRAVO!

[lhbenlee]

  On 10/26/2021 at 1:00 AM, trombonemom72 said:

This is so interesting, and something we have discussed at length among our band parent community. We were completely disgusted by the double grand pianos in the CTJ show at TMC (that school is 17% economically disadvantaged) when other schools just can't compete with those bells and whistles (which are inappropriate in a public school setting anyway, IMHO). From props to private lessons and individualized instruction to parents' ability to provide free labor to the bands, this is definitely not a level playing field. 

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Just to make sure everyone knows, those are not real grand pianos. Those are synthesizers cleverly dressed in props to look like real grand pianos. 

I'm not getting into the larger issue discussed here as I think subsequent posts address it well but I do want to correct misinformation. 

 

[BandFan95]

5 million years ago, there were no band fees. At the same time, we only rehearsed in summer for a few hours a day, and then after school from 3:30 to 5. We learned competition drill and learned a new drill for football games. During football games, we took the 3rd quarter to hit up the snack bar to eat. Fast forward to now. Band fees for some schools are $1500, which includes paying for drill, shoes, meals and more. I know that at my old high school, the boosters feed their band kids hot dogs and chips because that's all they can afford.

This is why I like UIL. All the elaborate props and singers don't really fool the UIL judging process. March clean and have a great sounding show and you can make it to state. It literally evens out the playing field for bands who don't have the money to pour in. Lots of band boosters work their butts off for these kids. And to the kids reading this, NONE OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT! You guys are awesome...so always remember that. 

[lhbenlee]

  On 10/26/2021 at 4:58 PM, trombonemom72 said:

What exactly did I say about band kids? Please show me in my initial post what I said about band kids. 

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I understand where you're coming from and you didn't call out the kids. I believe the reaction is primarily to the following statement which was pointed and negative toward the CTJ program:

  Quote

"We were completely disgusted by the double grand pianos in the CTJ show at TMC (that school is 17% economically disadvantaged) when other schools just can't compete with those bells and whistles (which are inappropriate in a public school setting anyway, IMHO)."

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Even if not the intent, this ends up coming off as a knock on the kids since it's the program as a whole and usage of the word "disgusted" is very negative. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the resources being used and how they manifest in the design of shows but it's going to be a more constructive conversation if it avoids the negativity. 

[josephbandfan]

  On 10/26/2021 at 4:41 PM, trombonemom72 said:

"So it's also frustrating and really ruins the mood when I hear any parents in the stands complaining about how this band doesn't deserve their placement or discounting what they've done because they have more funding."

 

Please point to the part of my post where I said that any band doesn't deserve their placement or discount what they've accomplished. You can't because I didn't say that. Period. I'm not tearing anyone or anything down. 

 

My kid is in private lessons and has been since sixth grade. We are very fortunate to be able to provide that for them and also to donate our time and money to the booster club at their school. 

 

At no point did I say that these kids don't work hard. At no point did I say that they don't deserve everything they've accomplished. But I can also tell you that my kid and their band peers leave the contests with the big-money shows feeling very dejected and like they will never ever be able to compete at that level despite the superhuman amount of work they put into their own show. 

 

I know first-hand how hard these kids and directors work. All I'm saying is that I don't think the shows need to have the Vegas-level of production values that they do. The physicality and musicianship of these shows are phenomenal. My point is that the talent on display should stand apart from the $100K production values, and that THE BAND KIDS THEMSELVES, including the one who lives in my house, feel like their work is discounted when they perform right after these schools with the big flashy shows, which are underwritten by privileged parents.

 

Regarding the public school piece: Texas has a horrible inequity problem in its public schools. This is laid bare at these big contests. I often question whether it's a good use of resources, while also fully participating in and enjoying the shows/programs. There's a tension there, to be sure. And I feel badly for the schools who clearly don't have the funds for the fancy moving props, etc. And there are schools in the Austin area that can barely field a marching band. 

 

Let me repeat: I value and cherish and applaud the kids. They are AMAZING. My own kid has been marching with a broken foot this season because they are so dedicated. I just wish all kids in all bands had the same opportunities. 

 

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I was never at any point speaking specifically towards you. I said "parents in the stands". 

How I see it, props should be used to enhance a show rather than something to rely on. I don't see a problem with programs trying to be innovative with design and props to bring a show that surprises the crowd in a new way. There are many examples of shows that do extremely well with little to no props and if you took out all of CTJ's props, I guarantee you they would still place very high because of their performance. For Keller's props in 2015, they just found sticks outside, painted them white, and stuck them into styrofoam on wheels to make trees and that's it. They made San Antonio and Grand National finals. Ronald Reagan was was arguably the #1 band in 2019 and didn't have any props on the field.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not denying that money and props don't give many bands an advantage or that some programs don't go overboard with props. Band is all about life lessons and if your child can come out of a contest happy with their performance regardless of what others do, then they are already ahead of the game.

I am glad you responded respectfully and clarified your appreciation for everyone. The intermediate and middle school I went to had a total of a dozen or so kids in the band program and only one instructor. So, I just want people to be grateful and happy that they even get a music education and appreciate what others are able to achieve.

[SavageBevo]

  On 10/26/2021 at 2:09 AM, LeanderMomma said:

I’m feeling kinda disgusted myself right now knowing that band parents are talking about kids like this. 

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I guess I read that post slightly differently.  I see a comment regarding a grand piano (or synthesizer), not someone bashing other kids in particular.  I also see it as someone wanting to see their kid having a reasonable chance at success (on the scorecard anyway).  Having said that, I don't think changing/limiting other schools is the way to achieve that.  If someone has the will and drive to have grand pianos and elaborate productions, by all means go for it.  It just hopefully raises the bar and provides motivation for others.  Sadly, I could see how a kid could be a bit discouraged after seeing that and lose interest in band altogether, and I've heard that from students sitting in the stands at a competition this year.

 

Also, as one of the many "newcomers" here, I've so far only posted a schedule and asked a silly question about scoring (I'm new to all of this).  Try not to look down at us "newcomers" too much.  In my experience as a new band parent, parents from our school and other schools have been welcoming and nothing but polite, and I've tried to do the same.
 

[trombonemom72]

  On 10/26/2021 at 6:19 PM, lhbenlee said:

I understand where you're coming from and you didn't call out the kids. I believe the reaction is primarily to the following statement which was pointed and negative toward the CTJ program:

Even if not the intent, this ends up coming off as a knock on the kids since it's the program as a whole and usage of the word "disgusted" is very negative. Everyone is entitled to their opinion about the resources being used and how they manifest in the design of shows but it's going to be a more constructive conversation if it avoids the negativity. 

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That's fair. The issue transcends any one school. And not so much "disgusted" as frustrated, but at the system but definitely no ill will toward the kids at all, ever.

[Tailgate88]

I actually have been on both sides of this, so I can empathize with everyone here.  In the fall of 2015 my daughter was a Freshman and our school was in it's third year of existence. They had been 3A the first two years and it was the first year there was a senior class. The band had one panel as a prop - just one. They were good (never not made Sweepstakes at Region) so they advanced to 5A Area D.  I took the day off and drove up to Austin and arrived early enough to watch a few bands before we performed. In walks Vista Ridge, twice the size of us - props, guard blockers... the whole deal.  They turned around and blew our hair back with the first hit and I just thought..... woah.  There were several other Leander bands that followed too.  We performed and did well, but needless to say did not make finals.  Great first time at Area though, and a learning experience.

Our kids on that day were probably wondering "How are we ever going to compete with THEM?"

The answer is, we got busy.  The kids got better.  They learned how to march better because we hired techs.  The boosters figured out better fund raisers so we could raise the money for big props, a custom show design, custom drill, etc.  In 2017 we went to Area with a great show but had a glitch and lost power.  The kids picked themselves up and in 2018 we won a couple marching contests. In 2019 we made area finals but missed state. And in 2021, we are headed to 5A State for the first time. There are some powerhouse bands that will be here, most of which have been doing it longer than us, and in our heart of hearts we know we don't have a shot to win.... this year.  But our kids feel like they can COMPETE with anyone now.

Now when we roll into a contest and see the other bands walk by as we are building our giant props, I feel bad, because I know how they feel because I remember our kids feeling like that.  I wanted my kid to experience being in a program with bigger props and all that goes with it. And you can get there - you just need to get started building the program. That takes great directors and kids, a supportive administration, and a strong and dedicated booster program. 

It's a process.  Embrace it, and realize that it's a multi-year process and it might take longer than the four years your kid is in school to get there.   But without the bands of yesterday, there would be no band of today. They all played a part, of building a program.

Marching Band is the best!

Good luck to  everyone wherever you may be performing in the next few weeks!

 

 

 

 

 

[BandFan59]

I just want to add that props are not the end all be all for marching band shows. Lots of schools like to have them because it just fits the style of their productions, and CTJ is one of those schools. But look at Ronald Reagan. They've been one of I would argue the top 5 bands in the COUNTRY the past several years, yet in their shows aside from some panels at the front they have zero props. Judges are not so easily swayed that some props will elevate a show's score or ranking just for existing. I know it can be discouraging to see some of them and think how can we compete with bands like that, but I promise you that hard work and dedication is all that's needed to make a show and its performers shine.

[Samuel Culper]

  On 10/26/2021 at 7:52 PM, Tailgate88 said:

I actually have been on both sides of this, so I can empathize with everyone here.  In the fall of 2015 my daughter was a Freshman and our school was in it's third year of existence. They had been 3A the first two years and it was the first year there was a senior class. The band had one panel as a prop - just one. They were good (never not made Sweepstakes at Region) so they advanced to 5A Area D.  I took the day off and drove up to Austin and arrived early enough to watch a few bands before we performed. In walks Vista Ridge, twice the size of us - props, guard blockers... the whole deal.  They turned around and blew our hair back with the first hit and I just thought..... woah.  There were several other Leander bands that followed too.  We performed and did well, but needless to say did not make finals.  Great first time at Area though, and a learning experience.

Our kids on that day were probably wondering "How are we ever going to compete with THEM?"

The answer is, we got busy.  The kids got better.  They learned how to march better because we hired techs.  The boosters figured out better fund raisers so we could raise the money for big props, a custom show design, custom drill, etc.  In 2017 we went to Area with a great show but had a glitch and lost power.  The kids picked themselves up and in 2018 we won a couple marching contests. In 2019 we made area finals but missed state. And in 2021, we are headed to 5A State for the first time. There are some powerhouse bands that will be here, most of which have been doing it longer than us, and in our heart of hearts we know we don't have a shot to win.... this year.  But our kids feel like they can COMPETE with anyone now.

Now when we roll into a contest and see the other bands walk by as we are building our giant props, I feel bad, because I know how they feel because I remember our kids feeling like that.  I wanted my kid to experience being in a program with bigger props and all that goes with it. And you can get there - you just need to get started building the program. That takes great directors and kids, a supportive administration, and a strong and dedicated booster program. 

It's a process.  Embrace it, and realize that it's a multi-year process and it might take longer than the four years your kid is in school to get there.   But without the bands of yesterday, there would be no band of today. They all played a part, of building a program.

Marching Band is the best!

Good luck to  everyone wherever you may be performing in the next few weeks!

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What a great story.

And to play off of what is related here... All it takes is a few parents/boosters who really want to make a difference. Go talk to boosters of the more successful programs and ask them about what works.  What works to support the directors and take everything possible off of their plates so that they can spend more of their time working with the kids?  What works to raise money for the props and techs and clinicians? 

Band parents are almost as awesome as band kids.  Nobody is keeping secrets on how they do things - They will absolutely share their knowledge.  Go get it!

Keeping those goals in mind and building a culture in the booster program WILL make a difference. 

[LeanderMomma]

  On 10/26/2021 at 4:58 PM, trombonemom72 said:

What exactly did I say about band kids? Please show me in my initial post what I said about band kids. 

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It just REALLY rubbed me the wrong way for your second post ever in the forum to be one that denigrates the CTJ program specifically. Saying you were “disgusted” with their piano props didn’t sit well with me.  I apologize if you felt that I was too harsh but I know that literally thousands of band kids read this forum and I think we all need to keep that in mind when we are posting our thoughts and feelings here. 

[LeanderMomma]

  On 10/26/2021 at 6:42 PM, SavageBevo said:

Also, as one of the many "newcomers" here, I've so far only posted a schedule and asked a silly question about scoring (I'm new to all of this).  Try not to look down at us "newcomers" too much.  In my experience as a new band parent, parents from our school and other schools have been welcoming and nothing but polite, and I've tried to do the same.

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No one is looking down on anyone based on their tenure here. I was just attempting (poorly perhaps) to help “newcomers” understand that it isn’t just band parents posting here. There are oh so many band kids reading this forum as well. More than y’all may realize. I know because I actually talk to them about it. Often!  And I strongly feel that we need to always be aware of exactly what we are saying and how it might be misconstrued by them. Also, CTJ is a program that is often undeservedly criticized here and I admit that I get quite defensive when I see that happen. I know the program well, have many friends there, and I know those parents love their band program as much as anyone. They deserve nothing but our respect, same as any other program does, and I just hate it when I see arrows aimed right at a program that I have such high regard for, same as I would feel if the darts were aimed directly at Leander.  

I apologize again if my initial comments seemed harsh. I was truly just really taken aback by a brand new poster using such antagonistic language in regards to the CTJ band program. My aim here, more than anything else, is that we make sure that we honor every band program out there putting in the effort.  I know we all have the same ultimate goal and that is to build up these students and honor the hard work they do, regardless of the school they are affiliated with. At the end of the day, there’s nothing quite like marching band in Texas, and our children are insanely fortunate to be a part of the most incredible music culture in the country. 

[vbassoon]

 marching band is a relatively new activity in the grand scheme of things. considering for dozens of socioeconomic, geographical, and political variables, it's really impossible to have everyone in the same playing field. especially here in Texas where funding is usually more athletics-centric; however, marching band in Texas is special and has been rapidly developing over the last few decades into a world class performance activity. this talk about overly decorated shows is just redundant. man, i want yall to search up Stephen F. Austin (Sugarland) 2016 show. the guard didn't even have flags and still placed in the top half of 6A. end of the day, control what you can control, because what else are you going to do?

[Marchingbandperson]

Not to be rude or anything, but how much parents do can not change much. For example basically on of the richest schools in Austin, Westlake, has a massive fundraising program, but struggles to even reach finals in San Antonio. Compare that to Vandegrift, who have been one of the best bands.  If you go to band practices at different schools you can see the difference in how the bands rehearse. The idea that the reason CTJ one of the top bands because they have two synthesizers (btw a lot of bands have these) and not because of the hard work kids put in is crazy. The reason kids get disheartened when performing after CTJ, Reagan, Vandegrift and others is because they almost look like robots while marching and playing, not because they have a grand piano.