Vidal28 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Thank you for the response. You explained why two different judges are unlikely to give the same score to a band very well which was informative, however I wanted to know why one particular judge oftentimes doesn’t give tied scores in their own rankings. Like why does judge 1 score Band X an 853 and Band Y an 852? Can they really tell a 1 point difference or are they prohibited from giving two different bands the same score? I’ve never seen one judge give two bands the same score/ranking. Most easy answer to that, someone has to be above/below someone else. For the sake of the rankings. Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Culper Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 26 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Thank you for the response. You explained why two different judges are unlikely to give the same score to a band very well which was informative, however I wanted to know why one particular judge oftentimes doesn’t give tied scores in their own rankings. Like why does judge 1 score Band X an 853 and Band Y an 852? Can they really tell a 1 point difference or are they prohibited from giving two different bands the same score? I’ve never seen one judge give two bands the same score/ranking. Don't think of scores as being objective. They are primarily a tool for a judge to rank order bands. Beyond that, different judges use the scores differently. They may be communicating something else to the bands they are scoring, but you probably don't really know unless you also have access to their comments. Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Vidal28 said: Most easy answer to that, someone has to be above/below someone else. For the sake of the rankings. I guess that was the confusing part. What’s wrong with a judge giving tied rankings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 11 minutes ago, Samuel Culper said: Don't think of scores as being objective. They are primarily a tool for a judge to rank order bands. Beyond that, different judges use the scores differently. They may be communicating something else to the bands they are scoring, but you probably don't really know unless you also have access to their comments. Thanks for the info! So BOA is about your score, while UIL is about your ranking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vidal28 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 hour ago, Dallas Hobbs said: I guess that was the confusing part. What’s wrong with a judge giving tied rankings? I believe there’s judges’ preference when it comes to breaking the tie of a total ordinal score, if both bands get a total of 33 and there’s an even number of judges that liked both because there’s a judge that tied them, it just makes things more complicated. I forget how many judges they have for UIL when it comes to area and State, but I believe it’s an odd number for both! Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 7 minutes ago, Vidal28 said: I believe there’s judges’ preference when it comes to breaking the tie of a total ordinal score, if both bands get a total of 33 and there’s an even number of judges that liked both because there’s a judge that tied them, it just makes things more complicated. I forget how many judges they have for UIL when it comes to area and State, but I believe it’s an odd number for both! Yes, all Area contests and conf. 1A-4A state contests have 5 judges (3 music, 2 visual) while 5A and 6A state contests have 7 judges (music ensemble, woodwinds, brass, percussion, ensemble visual, individual visual, and content & design). I guess the next question is would it be so bad to send both bands to state if they tie for the last spot? In BOA if two or more bands tie for the last available finals spot, or for 1st place in finals, both bands are rewarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vidal28 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Yes, all Area contests and conf. 1A-4A state contests have 5 judges (3 music, 2 visual) while 5A and 6A state contests have 7 judges(music ensemble, woodwinds, brass, percussion, ensemble visual, individual visual, and content & design). I guess the next question is would it be so bad to send both bands to state if they tie for the last spot? In BOA if two or more bands tie for the last available finals spot, or for 1st place in finals, both bands are rewarded. Ties have happened before, but not due to the same judge tying them, as you of course don’t really see that, but more so with the ordinals added up being tied. and it all has to do with each area being strictly allotted the number of bands they’re able to send. If an area can only send 5 bands then it can’t be 6, tie has to be broken somehow👀 Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Vidal28 said: Ties have happened before, but not due to the same judge tying them, as you of course don’t really see that, but more so with the ordinals added up being tied. and it all has to do with each area being strictly allotted the number of bands they’re able to send. If an area can only send 5 bands then it can’t be 6, tie has to be broken somehow👀 Ooh I see. They’re limited to a certain number of qualifiers so they’re forced to break the tie. My suggestion of permitting more bands to be qualified for state is probably a question for UIL/TMEA officials. Not sure if they would’ve liked it though lol Vidal28 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vidal28 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 28 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Ooh I see. They’re limited to a certain number of qualifiers so they’re forced to break the tie. My suggestion of permitting more bands to be qualified for state is probably a question for UIL/TMEA officials. Not sure if they would’ve liked it though lol In the current system…hmmm I forget how many minimum qualifiers there are for each area, but the number of bands that are able to qualify for state all hinges on how many groups are able to advance to area in the first place, as you’ve seen discussed in the thread quite a bit. I think Area B in particular could’ve had a maximum of 7 bands advance to state, with the number of 6A groups that exist in the area, but now with some groups getting 2’s at region, the max number is down to 6, and the magic number to reduce that to 5 bands is 4. 4 bands or more get 2’s and then the number drops again. Region 30, all 6A bands are locks for area qualification, the HEB duo, Haltom, Coppell, and Carroll are locks every day of the week, so all eyes are on region 20 and how they do to see how many bands make Area. Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Vidal28 said: In the current system…hmmm I forget how many minimum qualifiers there are for each area, but the number of bands that are able to qualify for state all hinges on how many groups are able to advance to area in the first place, as you’ve seen discussed in the thread quite a bit. I think Area B in particular could’ve had a maximum of 7 bands advance to state, with the number of 6A groups that exist in the area, but now with some groups getting 2’s at region, the max number is down to 6, and the magic number to reduce that to 5 bands is 4. 4 bands or more get 2’s and then the number drops again. Region 30, all 6A bands are locks for area qualification, the HEB duo, Haltom, Coppell, and Carroll are locks every day of the week, so all eyes are on region 20 and how they do to see how many bands make Area. Yes. The number of bands an area can certify for state goes by the 1-to-5 rule. When 15 or more bands qualify for Area, that area will send 1 band for every 5 that qualifies for the respective area contest. If 14 or less qualify for that area contest, they’ll only send the top two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave609 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Yes. The number of bands an area can certify for state goes by the 1-to-5 rule. When 15 or more bands qualify for Area, that area will send 1 band for every 5 that qualifies for the respective area contest. If 14 or less qualify for that area contest, they’ll only send the top two. 13 minutes ago, Vidal28 said: In the current system…hmmm I forget how many minimum qualifiers there are for each area, but the number of bands that are able to qualify for state all hinges on how many groups are able to advance to area in the first place, as you’ve seen discussed in the thread quite a bit. I think Area B in particular could’ve had a maximum of 7 bands advance to state, with the number of 6A groups that exist in the area, but now with some groups getting 2’s at region, the max number is down to 6, and the magic number to reduce that to 5 bands is 4. 4 bands or more get 2’s and then the number drops again. Region 30, all 6A bands are locks for area qualification, the HEB duo, Haltom, Coppell, and Carroll are locks every day of the week, so all eyes are on region 20 and how they do to see how many bands make Area. It does change for 4A and Below, they send 3 automatically and once they hit 20 bands, then the 1-to-5 rule begins. Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Just now, Dave609 said: It does change for 4A and Below, they send 3 automatically and once they hit 20 bands, then the 1-to-5 rule begins. Oop! I didn’t know that. Thank you! For 1A bands, don’t they automatically qualify for state if they make a 1 at region? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave609 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 2 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Oop! I didn’t know that. Thank you! For 1A bands, don’t they automatically qualify for state if they make a 1 at region? Yes, and same goes for Military bands opting for State Military. Those spots still get counted towards Area, but if a 1A or Military receive a 1, then they automatically go to state! Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Dave609 said: Yes, and same goes for Military bands opting for State Military. Those spots still get counted towards Area, but if a 1A or Military receive a 1, then they automatically go to state! What do you mean by this part? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave609 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 1 minute ago, Dallas Hobbs said: What do you mean by this part? If a Military Band chooses to advance to the State Military Contest instead of going to their Area Contest, then there will be a spot that is under DNA Band. The band's spot is still counted towards a spot at that Area, even if the band is not attending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 Just now, Dave609 said: If a Military Band chooses to advance to the State Military Contest instead of going to their Area Contest, then there will be a spot that is under DNA Band. The band's spot is still counted towards a spot at that Area, even if the band is not attending Oh so it’s different for military style bands. They go to state if they make a 1 at region, but are still able to compete at area if they do choose? I guess I’d wonder what’s the point of an Area contest if bands can go straight to state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave609 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: Oh so it’s different for military style bands. They go to state if they make a 1 at region, but are still able to compete at area if they do choose? I guess I’d wonder what’s the point of an Area contest if bands can go straight to state? No, they have two options, either Open Class or Military Class, not both. But the spot stays open, but is under a DNA Band, but the band will not be able to attend if they chose the Militiary path instead of Open Class. Sorry if I'm not making sense 😆. I do better explaining it when talking to someone in person VS. text Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 6 minutes ago, Dave609 said: No, they have two options, either Open Class or Military Class, not both. But the spot stays open, but is under a DNA Band, but the band will not be able to attend if they chose the Militiary path instead of Open Class. Sorry if I'm not making sense 😆. I do better explaining it when talking to someone in person VS. text You’re doing great! This is very informative! I didn’t realize military class bands have different rules. Do all military class bands regardless of their conference get to perform at the state Military class contest if they get a one at region? Or is it different for different conferences? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave609 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 3 minutes ago, Dallas Hobbs said: You’re doing great! This is very informative! I didn’t realize military class bands have different rules. Do all military class bands regardless of their conference get to perform at the state Military class contest if they get a one at region? Or is it different for different conferences? Same for all! But if they choose the Open Class path, then they will go to their respective Area Contest instead of going to State for Military Class Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Mike16 Posted October 13, 2022 Share Posted October 13, 2022 As far as I know this year, we will have no Military bands doing Open Class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hard Core Band Fan Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 2 hours ago, J-Mike16 said: As far as I know this year, we will have no Military bands doing Open Class. Why would they? That would be way harder for them to compete in and there are very few military bands anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostChoirGuy Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 I know this will just make it more confusing, but I want to point out that the number of spots each area gets at state is not as strictly locked as was suggested on this thread. I can't remember the exact rule, but there is an obscure rule that any band getting a certain number of 1st or 2nd ordinal rankings gets qualified automatically, even if they don't place in a qualifying spot overall. We saw this recently in one of the Austin areas. This probably couldn't happen in Area B because of how many qualifying spots they have though. My point in bringing it up is that I agree that if there are scenarios in which more bands can qualify for state than was anticipated, they should also let ties for the last qualifying spot advance. Dallas Hobbs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Mike16 Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 34 minutes ago, Hard Core Band Fan said: Why would they? That would be way harder for them to compete in and there are very few military bands anyway. We had one compete in Open Class last year. Spring Hill placed 21st in 4A State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Hobbs Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 7 minutes ago, LostChoirGuy said: I know this will just make it more confusing, but I want to point out that the number of spots each area gets at state is not as strictly locked as was suggested on this thread. I can't remember the exact rule, but there is an obscure rule that any band getting a certain number of 1st or 2nd ordinal rankings gets qualified automatically, even if they don't place in a qualifying spot overall. We saw this recently in one of the Austin areas. This probably couldn't happen in Area B because of how many qualifying spots they have though. My point in bringing it up is that I agree that if there are scenarios in which more bands can qualify for state than was anticipated, they should also let ties for the last qualifying spot advance. Yeah I believe it’s if 3 judges certify you for state, then you automatically qualify for state regardless of your placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hard Core Band Fan Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 50 minutes ago, J-Mike16 said: We had one compete in Open Class last year. Spring Hill placed 21st in 4A State. Spring Hill is an oddity in the military class and would be better off competing against corps bands. I meant true military bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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