UIL 6A Area B 2023

[BandGuy88]

  On 10/22/2023 at 4:32 PM, randomguardkid07 said:

very surprised about the mansfield schools placing as low as they did— and KC not making state!! loved their show so much. very happy for haltom though!

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Saying this as a Mansfield ISD alum... I'm not necessarily surprised. There are really talented kids and teachers in MISD high schools but they are going up against schools with 1, 2, sometimes 3 (in the case of Coppell) more full time band directors than the Mansfield schools have.

 

When you have two "wind" directors for 170-200 (or more) wind players it becomes challenging for them to really address individual or section issues, so you rely lots on big picture "ensemble" teaching and hope the kids and leadership team are "self correcting". 

 

I could be way off but these are just my two cents

 

[emusketter]

  On 10/23/2023 at 1:56 AM, alex4nder said:

Would also like to mention that Haltom didn't even make area finals the last 2 years (13th in 2021 and 15th in 2022) so to end up 5th in prelims and 6th in finals is a pretty impressive turn around from the program. Especially in such a brutal area. 

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Agreed. I think it is also worth mentioning that pre-Covid, 2019 Haltom had a very good year. And if I'm not mistaken, they were planning to attend GN in 2020. Haltom has a long and proud history dating to the 90s so it is nice to see them bring it back and hopefully continue it. 

[randomguardkid07]

  On 10/23/2023 at 3:12 PM, BandGuy88 said:

Saying this as a Mansfield ISD alum... I'm not necessarily surprised. There are really talented kids and teachers in MISD high schools but they are going up against schools with 1, 2, sometimes 3 (in the case of Coppell) more full time band directors than the Mansfield schools have.

 

When you have two "wind" directors for 170-200 (or more) wind players it becomes challenging for them to really address individual or section issues, so you rely lots on big picture "ensemble" teaching and hope the kids and leadership team are "self correcting". 

 

I could be way off but these are just my two cents

 

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i was more saying that i was surprised about lake ridge missing finals—their show wasn’t as strong as last year’s, but it was still impressive and felt finals-worthy. also, i feel that mansfield had a far better performance than they did last year, but they placed the exact same. i do agree with you, though, and i’m not discrediting your opinion at all!! just my two cents as well haha

[BandGuy88]

  On 10/23/2023 at 8:29 PM, randomguardkid07 said:

i was more saying that i was surprised about lake ridge missing finals—their show wasn’t as strong as last year’s, but it was still impressive and felt finals-worthy. also, i feel that mansfield had a far better performance than they did last year, but they placed the exact same. i do agree with you, though, and i’m not discrediting your opinion at all!! just my two cents as well haha

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I hear ya and don't disagree. Other schools got better while the Mansfield schools sort of stayed where they were at last year. I still think if Mansfield ISD staffed the high school band programs like all the other districts in Area B we'd be seeing more schools make finals and possibly sneak into State, but again that's just my opinion. 

[Caleb02]

Does anybody have the prelims raw scores? I have seen the ordinals for prelims but am very curious to see the raw scores.

[aaron067]

[Caleb02]

  On 10/24/2023 at 5:56 PM, aaron067 said:

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Thank you!

[BandNerd07]

  On 10/24/2023 at 5:56 PM, aaron067 said:

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Yeah, I wonder why they didn't post the raw scores on the UIL website this year...

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/22/2023 at 3:42 PM, BandFanForever said:

The Fossil kids were super devastated and confused. They had a really good run at 8:30 in the morning, and they beat many of the bands that placed ahead of them earlier in the season. They just fielded their part 4 like the day before Prosper, and it was complicated, so maybe it still wasn't as clean as it needed to be? They were also sandwiched directly between LD Bell and Duncanville in prelims, so maybe their weaker areas looked even more obvious by comparison?? Who knows? All we can say is that there was a lot of shock and a ton of tears. Very sad. But congrats to the bands that advanced!! Great job!

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Yeah they were.  If you look at the scores the judges were all over the place with Ridge.  One scored them 10 places ahead of another in music, and the visual judges did the same.  I can't agree with the scoring on Ridge at all.  They were definitely better than some of the bands that placed above them.  

[Tw6]

  On 9/4/2023 at 2:05 PM, BandNerd07 said:

I thought it would be cool to post some band videos this year in this area. So here's a few I found:

Boswell HS: 

Chisholm Trail HS: 

Trinity HS: 

Lake Ridge HS: 

North Crowley HS: 

Fossil Ridge HS: 

 

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You should check out the legacy bronco band

 

[Tw6]

  On 10/22/2023 at 4:32 PM, randomguardkid07 said:

very surprised about the mansfield schools placing as low as they did— and KC not making state!! loved their show so much. very happy for haltom though!

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Legacy and Mansfield placed higher than before. Legacy at 16 and Mansfield at 19. Suprised lake ridge got 13.

 

[BandFanForever]

  On 10/24/2023 at 9:51 PM, BandMom2026 said:

Yeah they were.  If you look at the scores the judges were all over the place with Ridge.  One scored them 10 places ahead of another in music, and the visual judges did the same.  I can't agree with the scoring on Ridge at all.  They were definitely better than some of the bands that placed above them.  

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Yeah... the scoring was crazy all over the place. That's true of a lot of the bands.... wildly inconsistent scoring. I just watched a video of the performance with fresh, honest eyes and we watched a bunch of other bands that day, and while it may not have been enough to get into finals, the Fossil Ridge performance definitely did not deserve 23rd place by a long shot. Their performance was pretty great for as complicated as it was, and they had no tears, no guard drops, no collisions, no tech problems... it was a tiny bit dirty in parts, but overall pretty solid by the video. So confusing and heartbreaking for them. But it is what it is... judges preference, I guess.

[Linkus]

what were the thoughts on legacy's show overall?

 

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/25/2023 at 3:34 AM, BandFanForever said:

Yeah... the scoring was crazy all over the place. That's true of a lot of the bands.... wildly inconsistent scoring. I just watched a video of the performance with fresh, honest eyes and we watched a bunch of other bands that day, and while it may not have been enough to get into finals, the Fossil Ridge performance definitely did not deserve 23rd place by a long shot. Their performance was pretty great for as complicated as it was, and they had no tears, no guard drops, no collisions, no tech problems... it was a tiny bit dirty in parts, but overall pretty solid by the video. So confusing and heartbreaking for them. But it is what it is... judges preference, I guess.

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They need a rubric or something.  It's next to impossible to advance unless you're a gigantic band.  Bands like Bowie and GP who are 6A schools, but not 6A size bands can't compete with bands like TC who have 4x the people.  The way UIL has always categorized size doesn't work in today's school system.  Bands should be categorized by program size not school size.  

Edited October 25, 2023 by BandMom2026
Original message wasn't clear.

[Gehrig4]

  On 10/25/2023 at 1:36 PM, BandMom2026 said:

They need a rubric or something.  It's next to impossible to advance unless you're a gigantic band.  Bands like Bowie and GP who are 6A schools, but not 6A size bands can't compete with bands like TC who have 4x the people.  The way UIL has always categorized size doesn't work in today's school system.  Bands should be categorized by program size not school size.  

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The other side of this argument is that the 6a designation already separates schools by size - the only way to do what you're saying is to do like football - 6a division 1 and 2.   Bands like Coppell have a full JV squad getting 1's at Area - TC graduates 46 seniors, but has like 90 freshmen..  they march 280-290  now so they are about to get much bigger.   Whether we like it or not, the bigger bands sound and look different.   I do think those legacy schools we all know, and the more frequent bands in ascent (Prosper, Wakeland, TC, e.g) deserve credit for building what they have.   We all know what a heavy lift it is.    Success begets interest begets success.    

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/25/2023 at 2:24 PM, Gehrig4 said:

The other side of this argument is that the 6a designation already separates schools by size - the only way to do what you're saying is to do like football - 6a division 1 and 2.   Bands like Coppell have a full JV squad getting 1's at Area - TC graduates 46 seniors, but has like 90 freshmen..  they march 280-290  now so they are about to get much bigger.   Whether we like it or not, the bigger bands sound and look different.   I do think those legacy schools we all know, and the more frequent bands in ascent (Prosper, Wakeland, TC, e.g) deserve credit for building what they have.   We all know what a heavy lift it is.    Success begets interest begets success.    

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Yes, they do look and sound different when they're larger which is why we should do it like Drill Teams do. They have small class, medium class, and large class.  You can't "beget success" when you can't compete because of your size.  It shouldn't be based on school size, it should be based on program size.  

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/25/2023 at 3:21 PM, Asaiah said:

If size dictates success, then how do bands like Rouse manage to be competitive with the larger bands?

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It doesn't necessarily "dictate", but it does make it extremely difficult.  Especially when it seems that almost all of the bands who go to state are very large.  Bowie and GP would have placed higher if they were with bands of similar size.  

[pancake]

  On 10/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, BandMom2026 said:

It doesn't necessarily "dictate", but it does make it extremely difficult.  Especially when it seems that almost all of the bands who go to state are very large.  Bowie and GP would have placed higher if they were with bands of similar size.  

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what about Allen, they have the the largest band program in the nation but does not usually face competitive success. sure, having more kids would be very helpful, but it’s hard to make the assumption that bowie and gp would automatically place higher with more kids. i love bands like rouse and argyle as they are so amazing and manage to be amazing with a small number of kids, especially when competing with giant bands like round rock, vandegrift, and vista.

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/25/2023 at 6:17 PM, pancake said:

what about Allen, they have the the largest band program in the nation but does not usually face competitive success. sure, having more kids would be very helpful, but it’s hard to make the assumption that bowie and gp would automatically place higher with more kids. i love bands like rouse and argyle as they are so amazing and manage to be amazing with a small number of kids, especially when competing with giant bands like round rock, vandegrift, and vista.

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I don't understand how you don't see that it's harder for smaller bands to compete against larger bands.  That's why we have schools categorized with 1A, 2A, 3A etc in the first place.  In theory a 6A school should have a large band while a 1A school should have a smaller band, so they wouldn't compete against each other.  

[Zil]

I think competing by program sizes can have unintended consequences. Wouldn't that open the door to "gaming the system"? Say a director doesn't want to compete in 6A so he limits the program size to 5A or 3A. And that would limit the number of students that can participate in the program which I'm sure is not something that any of us would want. 

I think it takes time and effort, from one class to the next and to the next and so on, to build a strong and successful band program. I remember someone here posting something similar (can't remember who it was or when it was posted). Someone posted a story about how they didn't compete well in the past but they have seen the growth in their school's program since then (and they're still trying to grow up). And it's not just the students and directors, it's everyone, including the parents and the community.

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/25/2023 at 7:07 PM, Zil said:

I think competing by program sizes can have unintended consequences. Wouldn't that open the door to "gaming the system"? Say a director doesn't want to compete in 6A so he limits the program size to 5A or 3A. And that would limit the number of students that can participate in the program which I'm sure is not something that any of us would want. 

I think it takes time and effort, from one class to the next and to the next and so on, to build a strong and successful band program. I remember someone here posting something similar (can't remember who it was or when it was posted). Someone posted a story about how they didn't compete well in the past but they have seen the growth in their school's program since then (and they're still trying to grow up). And it's not just the students and directors, it's everyone, including the parents and the community.

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It could, but bands like Bowie and GP used to have very large programs, but due to the way the districts have set up the schools it is almost impossible for students to be in the band program at Bowie now.  They've got some sort of collegiate thing going on over there which doesn't give them time in their schedules to be in fine arts.  I think any director that would purposely limit the number of students in a band program shouldn't be a high school band director though.  

[BandMom2026]

  On 10/25/2023 at 7:07 PM, Zil said:

I think competing by program sizes can have unintended consequences. Wouldn't that open the door to "gaming the system"? Say a director doesn't want to compete in 6A so he limits the program size to 5A or 3A. And that would limit the number of students that can participate in the program which I'm sure is not something that any of us would want. 

I think it takes time and effort, from one class to the next and to the next and so on, to build a strong and successful band program. I remember someone here posting something similar (can't remember who it was or when it was posted). Someone posted a story about how they didn't compete well in the past but they have seen the growth in their school's program since then (and they're still trying to grow up). And it's not just the students and directors, it's everyone, including the parents and the community.

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It does, but when you don't have the kids then you don't have the kids.  

[BandGuy88]

  On 10/25/2023 at 3:21 PM, Asaiah said:

If size dictates success, then how do bands like Rouse manage to be competitive with the larger bands?

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I feel success in UIL (or BOA) marching is determined by mostly by these factors, in priority order:

1) Quality of show design (memorable show that highlights strengths and hides weaknesses of the group)

2) Size of band, especially brass section

3) Quality of students (musical training)

4) Quality and quantity of full time band directors on staff

 

I know there are many other factors like community support, funding, etc that affect those 4 but that's how I see it in my head. 

 

[Gehrig4]

  On 10/25/2023 at 6:46 PM, Asaiah said:

I don't think anyone is going to argue that even the best 1A band has any chance of competing against even the worst 6A band, just that size isn't the only factor when it comes to why any band is successful. Skill, ability, technique -- whatever you wanna call it, these are things that separate the good from the great.

With that being said, it would be interesting to see how things would change if classifications were decided by band program enrollment instead of school enrollment, like you were saying. But I think implementing a Division 1/Division 2 system would be lame, because then no one will know who the best band in Texas is. I don't know why the football world tolerates that system, unless they have the two division champions play each other to decide who the best is? (In case it isn't obvious, I don't follow high school football at all)

Edit: I just looked it up and Division 1 is for larger schools, so football essentially has 12 classifications instead of 6.

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exactly.    if the 6a designation is 1500- google number of students , splitting that as they do in football might achieve what was being stated.  That said, I think I like it just how it is.   Band is just much more difficult to build.

You couldnt do it by enrollment in the band - a school of 3000 has access to far more musicians than does one of 500.  hat school of 500 had half th student body in band (250) and a school of 2500 had the same number. it would be (10%) of the student body.   Why would that be fair to the school of 500?   isnt it remarkable for a school to get people involved as a percentage of their enrollment?

So that same school that has a 250 person band in a school of 500 - imagine that 1A competition.   They would blow the roof off the dump.   

IMO

[BandNerd07]

Continuing the argument, I do agree with what BandMom is saying. I feel like lower end bands definitely have an unfair disadvantage due to size. I think if the bands were grouped based on program size rather than school size I think it would look something like this:

6A - basically all area finalists plus Lake Ridge, Richardson, Boswell, Martin, Weatherford, and Cedar Hill

5A - Trinity, Legacy, HP, SGP, North Crowley, FR, Nimitz, Crowley, Arlington, CT, Irving, and Paschal

4A - Desoto and MacArthur

3A - Bowie 

2A - GP